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[Kugerfang]

No. I obviously made all that up. There is nothing wrong with out society, everyone is happy and fulfilled, our governments are honest and righteous, people around the world are respectful and welcoming to each other, corporations seek the betterment of humanity sacrificing their own wealth, and God exists and He controls everything, so there is no need to worry. NOT! :tai:

EVERYONE knows, that something is wrong, the world, as it is, is wrong. Maybe you can't really put your finger on it, maybe you can, but fact is, if something smells fishy, its only fair to investigate. If there is a chance for a better future, it's only fair to pursue that chance.

Yes, something is wrong, and you can make it better. But not to the point of having a utopia. A utopia can only be accomplished by using force to force people.

[Playbahnosh]

Originally Posted by dosraider

Would that not be the truth as you see it? One of the many 'truths' around ....

Werner von Daniken would disagree with you, and tell you it's the alien species who do this stuff. See, that's his truth.....

There are many thruths around, and each has their believers/non-believers.

That exactly the thing I was talking about. "One of the many 'truths' around..." We are carpet-bombed by movies, books and other entertainment stuff with this precise concept:Conspiracy Theory, Enemy of the State, Conspiracy, Minority Report, The Conversation, The Net and many-many more: these feature cartoonish, over-the-top depictions of events and people, and by the fact that they are movies, books, stories, ergo fictitious, thus, in your brain, drawing an equal-sign between the two, making the people indifferent to real world examples like Zeitgeist, or other documentaries for that matter, because people are made to believe, that no such thing could exist as world-running corporations, secret government proceedings and the like. "They are only in the movies... they does not exist"

As for Däniken, I read some of his books. They are quite interesting, and he does present some things that very hard to explain. Like ancient tribes' knowledge about technology, they couldn't even know about, or mysterious references in scriptures about astrological stuff not even visible without a huge telescope. Aliens really visited our planet? No one knows for sure, not even Däniken. But even he denies religion, saying the exact same thing as Zeitgeist and numerous other documentaries, that religion is only a false, greedy, power-hungry, institutionalized form of old nature-based myths and stories, mainly Sun-worship.

As for the 'your truth' part, I don't believe, that the things in the two movies are really my truth. See, the main problem with theories like Däniken's, is that there is little to no real proof. We could gather more evidence or investigate, to find out if there is really something behind this idea, but the media ridiculed this topic to oblivion so much along the years, that noone really wants to touch it, lest get ridiculed himself. It's popular opinion that if someone talks about "the truth", "waking up", "uncovering the lies" or things like that, can only be either a) a religious fanatic, b) a conspiracy-theorist/UFO-believer/...etc nerd or a 3) raving lunatic.
The things Däniken investigates, happened more than 6000 years ago, and there is not much verifiable evidence from back then. Yes, carbon-dating and decrypting texts can go a long way, but none of us were really there to see stuff.

The thing is, we are not really sure what happened 6000 years ago, but zeitgeist stuff are happening now! You are one of the people in danger of being overrun by the monetary system. You are the one being lied to by every institution around you, and you are the one being blatantly exploited and preyed upon by powerful people you don't even believe to exist. Do I believe that there is a huge problem with society? I do. Which...uh...kinda makes it my truth too, granted, but it's not really the point. The point is, that it doesn't hurt to look around you a little better, with a critical eye.

Originally Posted by Kugerfang

Yes, something is wrong, and you can make it better. But not to the point of having a utopia. A utopia can only be accomplished by using force to force people.

Um...do you need forcing, to live in a better life? In a society that has no monetary system, thus has no money, no war, no poverty or luxury, no corruption or hidden agendas...etc, and no work. Where machines do every menial task that you can think of, assisting us in our everyday life, where everyone has top quality and totally healthy food and water on their table every day, when people don't kill each other, because there is no need to. Do you really need forcing to live in a world like that? :amused:

[Sal]

Hey Playbanosh....If you are into movies have a look at one that was made in 1976 called "Logan's Run" it is still available and was quite advanced for its time. It perfectly illustrates what you hae been saying about "Utopia" ..people live in a post apocolyptic world in dome cities where machines do everything.The hedonistic lifestyle is followed and pretty much all things are allowed...However when each child is born (no one knows who their birth mother is )they are fitted with a "life clock" this allows them 30 years of life and at the end of this time they must submit to "Carosel" or termination.(presumably all good things must come to an end sometime!)The one thing the controlling machines have not taken into account is the human spirits longing to "know" people want to run away and find out what is outside the dome..some are beginning to question "Carosel"
In the end there is no Utopia

[Bobbin Threadbare]

Hang on, guys! I need to get my tin foil hat on before I watch this! Paranoia isn't good for you.

[arlesya]

Originally Posted by Playbahnosh

That is what I talked about back there. All I asked was, to talk about things, and what did I get? Insults, mockery and pushing. And now I'm the aggressive? Wow... I must've missed something...

English is not my mother language, I'm Hungarian. By far, I learned to speak English well, but because I'm not a native, I tend to slip on those little language elements. I can assure you, that I didn't meant that to be aggressive in any way. I was just saying, that it's difficult to have a conversation about THIS TOPIC with the majority of people, because they won't even consider talking about it (here obviously) saying, that it's a farce, a fraud, a myth, or simply bull****, mostly comparing Zeitgest to some fundamentalist propaganda or a work of a bunch of lunatics with too much free time on their hands. And people won't stop to think about what is the message of the two movies, because they fear, if they do, they'll become somekinda brainwashed, mindless slaves to some obscure cult or sect or whatever. See?

Saying that your text is aggressive - not you personally since I don't know you and would be weird from me to jump to that conclusion - does not mean that other people weren't. But we are responsible for our own words, regardless on who people take them - which I find pretty scary myself. You can't hear my voice while I write this and that's one of the reasons why some people say that “a text is a son without a father”.
English is not my mother language either, but I can see your English is very good. I don't think language itself is the issue, I think you should just read what you write in a more critical way and I mean this with the best intentions. For instance, your answer to me was also pretty aggressive when I was just starting a sort of debate with you about why people are "trolling" you so much. I believe this has more to do with how you said it than what you said.
I'm a very infuriated person, as I'm noticing you are also. A lot of emotions. And it's very hard to take away the aggressive emotion from a text or a speech when you feel very strong about it. Just today I had a very silly argument with my Aunt over a political issue and she couldn't see my point because I was being too emotional about it. And that is what I meant. Even when we don't mean doing it - I didn't even notice how emotional I was being - it still comes across. When you read something infuriated you feel like you can't even talk to the person or he/she may just attack you. And some just attack first. It is like a healthy debate can't happen. Not that it is true, but that's how it looks at first. My comment was never meant as an attack, sorry if I also write aggressively.

[Playbahnosh]

Originally Posted by Sal

In the end there is no Utopia

I saw Logan's Run back in the day, and, with my teenager mind, I found it to be quite impressive and I did believe it's message. But, as you know, expectations change as human kind and technology progresses, making it crucial to re-evaluate our beliefs and expectations of the future from time to time. This is a time like that.

BTW, did you see the 1976 movie Network? Here is a clip from that movie. This is a golden example of what I was talking about regarding "media-numbness". I'm am, too, mad as hell, and I'm not really going to take this anymore. They had mostly the same problems back then. But! You see how the guy saying all those things is portrayed? Soaking wet, bad teeth, shaggy hair, ugly overcoat and a crazy gleam in his eyes. He literally goes raving mad on screen, getting more and more incoherent as he goes. Thus, the ideas he represented got invalidated by the fact that he is, indeed, crazy. Isn't that interesting?

Okay, back to topic. The notion, that in the new society, people will become lazy, gluttonous and hedonistic, is by now, pretty far fetched. For a while, yes, they will be like that, but not forever. As resources will be abundant, and everyone could fulfill their desires, common sense will kick in: Why have more of something than you need? Why overeat when it is, in fact, a threat to your health? Why lie, when you have nothing to gain by it? Why commit crime, when you have everything you need? ...etc.

As for dome-cities and "Carosel", they were a thing of fear back then. We wouldn't need dome-cities, we wouldn't need to condense people in any way. We could produce housing, that is efficient, secure, self-sustaining and cozy, in virtually every part of the world, up on the tallest mountain and under the see, it doesn't matter. We'll have generously sized and open living environments, there is no need to keep people from going about their business, why should we? As for "Carosel", the notion of controlled life was a very huge fear back then, fear of communism and other totalitarian form of life, and that is what is depicted in the 30 year lifespan, the 'death-clock' and the inevitable murder. In our new wold, we won't need stuff like that, quite the contrary, we will have much-much advanced healthcare, allowing us to live longer than ever before. What will prevent over-population, you ask? Birth control. By recognizing the fact, that Earth can't really support an unlimited population, people will realize, that it's in their insterest not to over-populate, so they won't. These things can only be achieved by educating people, teaching them how Earth works, how resource management works and things like that. When people are aware of dangers and are tought methods to prevent potentially harmful scenarios, it will be all good.

Originally Posted by arlesya

I'm a very infuriated person, as I'm noticing you are also.

Okay, I see what you mean, and I'm really quite sorry if I offended anyone.
The thing is, I'm normally a very calm and collected person, but at some times I can get pretty intense, and people tend to find it very puzzling. But I see what you mean, by having raving emotions is not a way to present theories and discuss stuff. I'll try to be more 'managable'

[Luchsen]

Originally Posted by Kugerfang

A utopia can only be accomplished by using force to force people.

Either:
You are thinking of utopia as an impossible, perfect perfect idea of life, wherin perfect perfect means that there is no crime, no work to do, no argument, no disagreement etc. (thus not human, but totalitarian).

Or:
You didn't remember that a Rechtsstaat is an instituted force, forcing people to a righteous life (counting as a good force). Additionally, I don't want to know, where our world would be today without the historic forces of revolution and enlightenment which were accomplished by the stupid, unsatisfied hoi polloi, while the thinkers were the clerks (always exploiting the same old power).

[Playbahnosh]

Resource Based Economy is not utopia. It's not perfect, it's just hell of a lot more better than what we have today. Instead of killing each other for worthless pieces of paper, people will devote their time and energy to improve the life on the planet, hence improve their own life. If you don't have to be concerned for your own survival, a whole new world will open to you.

It really baffles me to see how indifferent people are to the state of this planet. It's your life for goodness sake! If you don't care about your life, at least care about your children's and grandchildren's. It's not just your future we are talking about here! Do you want your offspring to suffer? Because if you leave them with a world like this, they will. Don't belive me, look around you. Everyone knows there are serious problems with this system, but nobody does anything. That's what we have to change. Remember, even a tiny snowflake can cause an avalanche.

[DoomYoshi]

Originally Posted by Playbahnosh

Resource Based Economy is not utopia. It's not perfect, it's just hell of a lot more better than what we have today. Instead of killing each other for worthless pieces of paper, people will devote their time and energy to improve the life on the planet, hence improve their own life. If you don't have to be concerned for your own survival, a whole new world will open to you.

It really baffles me to see how indifferent people are to the state of this planet. It's your life for goodness sake! If you don't care about your life, at least care about your children's and grandchildren's. It's not just your future we are talking about here! Do you want your offspring to suffer? Because if you leave them with a world like this, they will. Don't belive me, look around you. Everyone knows there are serious problems with this system, but nobody does anything. That's what we have to change. Remember, even a tiny snowflake can cause an avalanche.

I'm not even going to argue the sheer economic stupidity of a resource based economy. It is a waste of time. Instead, I would like to address the apathy that you assume everyone has. Every minute of every day the majority of people will try to modify the world to suit their needs. It may be something simple like turning on your air conditioner (climate control) or something more complex like environmentalism (more climate control). However, one fact remains fundamentally true. Whoever has more money has more power to modify the world as they see fit. For instance, when an air conditioner in a mansion is turned on (probably central air), a lot more climate is controlled then in some small apartment.

So you want to change the world. Instead of trying to convince people with an argument that was disproven by the Greeks, again by the Romans, again by the English, and most recently by the Chicago school, you could actually try to make some money and then implement whatever it is you see fit. People care. But they are only people and can't do much about it. In a truly better world, people would realize that money is a measurement of success, not success itself.

[dosraider]

Originally Posted by Playbahnosh

Instead of killing each other for worthless pieces of paper, .....

....they would kill eachother for a slice of meat.
As proven over and over again.

And who would build you your nice computer so that you can post your wild ideas on a godforsaken oldgames board?

Hey you there, I want a computer, is a pig enough?
Or do you want some eggs?
My wife? For some two months?
LMAO