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[ReamusLQ]

not old enough yet

[Ajax]

Well, good luck with that. I've been back to Europe the last two summers just to visit old pals that I met there. It's worth it.

[ReamusLQ]

I plan on it, and am looking forward to it. :angel: k:

[Yobor]

Originally posted by Sebatianos+Feb 15 2005, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sebatianos @ Feb 15 2005, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-xcom freak@Feb 15 2005, 09:50 PM
I dont understand how people can be atheist.
Think about it deeply and ull know that atheism makes no sense!
Maybe God is not human but u can never deny his presence!

I could say exactly the same thing:

I can't understand how people can be religious.
Think about it, and you'll see that you must stop thinking to become religious.
If you stop with the wishful thinking, then you must realize GOD doesn't exist.

But I must say, that's not my point!, I'm just using this for the further argument.

Just because you're used to people believing in GOD doesn't mean you're right. If you were brought up in a culture that believed in purple bees being the supreme leaders because mice gave them them power of burping (sounds really stupid I know) you'd think it's strange someone thinks otherwise.
I'm not saying it's wrong to believe - religion doesn't really teach anything bad and it does represent a cultural basis (same goes for communism too), but that's just a social function of it.
I'm a person who doesn't need all the answers, so I don't need to believe. If I don't know something, I either figure it out, or if I can't I admit I'm unable to do it. In that case there's nothing more then to pass the question on to the next generation and maybe someone won't have to strugle to get the question, but will have more time to think of the answer. That's how most knowladge came to be.
I don't need to look somewhere deep inside to be humble. I don't need to believe in something bigger then me because I'm inperfect.
Yes, there probably are other beings then humans, probably more evolved then we are. But does that make them GODs? No! Are we gods to dogs and horses? Maybe. A dog will blindly obey and worship his master, so to a dog I might be a god - but does that make me a god?
To a child a grown up can be like a god. A child is dependant on a grown up and accepts his supremacy, but once the child grows up, there's no more god. I guess religion takes the place of the parent then. People are often scared of being left without someone helping, suporting, loving and even punishing them. GODs get those atributes.
Governmants are close to that, but we all see the people in the governmants and can also see their flaws, that's why we don't think of them as gods. But since no-one saw a god recently (unless in a dream) no-one can see a flaw in that being (I'd say because it doesn't exist, someone else would say because god is perfect). Take your choice.

I'm not trying to convert anyone into atheism, but if you find my arguments strong, then it's because I really gave them a lot of thought and it makes perfect sense to me. So if you do wish to get in a discusion with me, be warned, your view on religion might change. Are you ready for a debate, or are you just trying to make some quick remarks about atheism?
Just remember, a plane would look really weird to a peasent in the 15th century. e'd probably think it's a work of a demon. So don't let your prejudges stand in the way on your view on atheism. [/b][/quote]
I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

I also am atheist. Many people are burdened with preconceptions about different symbols, like the pentagram. Pentagrams, in one mythos, are the ancient pagan symbol of Venus, godess of love. The Roman Catholic church, in the medievil ages, had a giant campaign against pagans and the jewish. They created many preconceptions about symbols that are still around today. I even thought the pentagram was a symbol of satan until I talked to some pagans..... :whistle: .
However, the startling disrespect that many people (at least where i live) give other religions disgusts me. I would prefer that we all got our own choice of religion. However, I take the disrespect in a bad way.... I return it with misrespect. :twisted:

Now i will talk about Aetheism.
Atheists don't need to believe in a god. We get strength from ourselves instead of from others. Also, we look at facts more than other things, so if you want to convince me of something, show me some evidence!

Also, i apologize if i have capitalized names incorrectly.

[ReamusLQ]

@ Yobor: The Second Law of Thermodynamics (also known as the Law of Entropy) states that, left to themselves, organized systems will become unstable and less organized as time advances, until eventual destruction. In simple terms, if something is left alone, it will run down. Our universe is considered an isolated system left for itself. By the Second Law of Thermodynamics, our universe should have collapsed years ago, but some outside force is helping maitain order.

I also go back to what I said before about the placement of the earth, the perfect proportion of atmospheric gases, and the one in a bajillion chance that life could be started from nothing, unless acted on by an outside force. Something, if not God, HAS to be maintaining order in the universe.

Edit: About symbols being changed meaning, I know that's true and it sucks. I mean, the swastika was originally a symbol of good luck, love, life, and light, until the Nazi's took it, turned it sideways, and gave it a bad name.

[cheesegrater]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ@Feb 15 2005, 09:22 PM
@ Yobor:* The Second Law of Thermodynamics (also known as the Law of Entropy) states that, left to themselves, organized systems will become unstable and less organized as time advances, until eventual destruction.* In simple terms, if something is left alone, it will run down.* Our universe is considered an isolated system left for itself.* By the Second Law of Thermodynamics, our universe should have collapsed years ago, but some outside force is helping maitain order.

I also go back to what I said before about the placement of the earth, the perfect proportion of atmospheric gases, and the one in a bajillion chance that life could be started from nothing, unless acted on by an outside force.* Something, if not God, HAS to be maintaining order in the universe.

Edit: About symbols being changed meaning, I know that's true and it sucks.* I mean, the swastika was originally a symbol of good luck, love, life, and light, until the Nazi's took it, turned it sideways, and gave it a bad name.

Have you made calculations that the universe should be destroyed by now?

Also, Earth is an open system because there is energy imput from the sun so it is possible to create order while the universe overall goes into disorder. The sun is what sustains life. Eventually the sun will run out of energy, but until then here we are.

It is possible that something created the universe however I don't think it is maintaining it. However, then how was "it" created? It always existed? I could just say that the universe always existed in some form and just keeps going through cycles of death and re-birth. However, now we are in the realm of philosophy. My point is that it doesn't HAVE to be some sort of supernatural stuff.

[ReamusLQ]

Originally posted by cheesegrater+Feb 15 2005, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cheesegrater @ Feb 15 2005, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ReamusLQ@Feb 15 2005, 09:22 PM
@ Yobor:* The Second Law of Thermodynamics (also known as the Law of Entropy) states that, left to themselves, organized systems will become unstable and less organized as time advances, until eventual destruction.* In simple terms, if something is left alone, it will run down.* Our universe is considered an isolated system left for itself.* By the Second Law of Thermodynamics, our universe should have collapsed years ago, but some outside force is helping maitain order.

I also go back to what I said before about the placement of the earth, the perfect proportion of atmospheric gases, and the one in a bajillion chance that life could be started from nothing, unless acted on by an outside force.* Something, if not God, HAS to be maintaining order in the universe.

Edit: About symbols being changed meaning, I know that's true and it sucks.* I mean, the swastika was originally a symbol of good luck, love, life, and light, until the Nazi's took it, turned it sideways, and gave it a bad name.

Have you made calculations that the universe should be destroyed by now?

Also, Earth is an open system because there is energy imput from the sun so it is possible to create order while the universe overall goes into disorder. The sun is what sustains life. Eventually the sun will run out of energy, but until then here we are.

It is possible that something created the universe however I don't think it is maintaining it. [/b][/quote]
Personally, no I have not made the calculations because I am not a physicist, nor do I have an extensive enough knowledge of therodynamics to make them myself. But I am going off of my research I have done, and I choose to trust these physicists.

If something created the universe, why would it leave it to it's own devices until it is destroyed? Once a master sculptor is finished with his statue, does he not polish and cherish his masterpiece? After someone buys a two hundred thousand dollar Ferrari, do they drive it around until it gets so dirty and broken down it refuses to run and looks like crap, or do they wash it, wax it, and get it maintanenced often? Why would whatever or whoever created our universe, be any different?

[cheesegrater]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ+Feb 15 2005, 10:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ReamusLQ @ Feb 15 2005, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Have you made calculations that the universe should be destroyed by now?

Also, Earth is an open system because there is energy imput from the sun so it is possible to create order while the universe overall goes into disorder. The sun is what sustains life. Eventually the sun will run out of energy, but until then here we are.

It is possible that something created the universe however I don't think it is maintaining it.

Personally, no I have not made the calculations because I am not a physicist, nor do I have an extensive enough knowledge of therodynamics to make them myself. But I am going off of my research I have done, and I choose to trust these physicists.

If something created the universe, why would it leave it to it's own devices until it is destroyed? Once a master sculptor is finished with his statue, does he not polish and cherish his masterpiece? After someone buys a two hundred thousand dollar Ferrari, do they drive it around until it gets so dirty and broken down it refuses to run and looks like crap, or do they wash it, wax it, and get it maintanenced often? Why would whatever or whoever created our universe, be any different? [/b][/quote]
What is the research you have done? What did these physicists say?

You are assigning human characteristics to supernatural beings. Thats why it would be different. It is also possible that no supernatural being created the universe or the being died when it created the universe.

[ReamusLQ]

is it not also possible then, for the being to have lived on, admiring its work, making sure it is not destroyed as it watches the masterpiece evolve?

Research done online, in the library, through people I know who have degrees in Physics and Therodynamics.

[cheesegrater]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ@Feb 15 2005, 10:30 PM
is it not also possible then, for the being to have lived on, admiring its work, making sure it is not destroyed as it watches the masterpiece evolve?

Research done online, in the library, through people I know who have degrees in Physics and Therodynamics.

It is possible. However, because the universe is degenerating - for example stars dieing it leads me to believe there is no being maintaining it.

What did those people say? That it is impossible for the universe to be in the state it is in today?

Supernatural is an easy way of explaining the unknown. How does something work? Magic. Instead of admitting that we don't know.