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[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by PrejudiceSucks@Sep 21 2005, 05:48 PM
Seb, in the UK only about 1% of abortions are carried out due to there being possible chances of mental illness in the child. Hence that comment is a bit pointless.

I wasn't talking about abortion - I was talking about killing mentaly retarded people that aren't aware of themselves... Because an argument for abortion was - embrio isn't aware of itself. There are other examples of people unaware of themselves - but killing them would still be a murder!

[gorkur]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Sep 21 2005, 02:21 PM
And that would also mean that it wouldn't be a crime killing mentaly retarded people - they aren't all aware of themselves either.

Yes they are.

[Sebatianos]

Not ALL, most of them are, but I've met two who really weren't (my mother devoted her whole life to mentaly retarded people, so I've met more then just a few cases of intelectual challenged people).

[Chuck the plant]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Sep 21 2005, 03:52 PM
Because an argument for abortion was - embrio isn't aware of itself.

No, it was NOT. It would be quite usefull not to twist words in my mouth. It was an arguement why abortion and throwing a baby in the dumpster is not the same. That is QUITE some difference.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Chuck the plant@Sep 21 2005, 06:09 PM
It was an arguement why abortion and throwing a baby in the dumpster is not the same. That is QUITE some difference.

OK - but a baby still isn't self-aware (at least not for a few weeks) so it still would be the same as throwing it in a dumpster.

[Kon-Tiki]

A baby does cry all the time whenever it needs something. When it's hungry, it'll cry. When it's crapped itself, it'll cry. When it doesn't like a person, it'll cry. When it doesn't like some food, it'll spit it all over you. I'd say it's got quite alot more self-awareness than an embryo.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Kon-Tiki@Sep 21 2005, 06:15 PM
A baby does cry all the time whenever it needs something. When it's hungry, it'll cry. When it's crapped itself, it'll cry. When it doesn't like a person, it'll cry. When it doesn't like some food, it'll spit it all over you. I'd say it's got quite alot more self-awareness than an embryo.

A baby starts crying as a response to something only after some two weeks! Before that its crying is nothing more then a reflex - like a sneeze or a cough (those do not prove self awareness). So if you throw a 10 days old baby in a dumpster - you'd throw away a being that's not self aware! So it would be like killing an embrio - if the criterium would be self-awareness.

[Tom Henrik]

I have said this before, and I'm gonna say it again...

Men have nothing to say in the matter of childbirth and abortion. We have no way of picturing the emotional strain the girl is experiencing. One half of you are trying to portrait the woman as a habitual killer, and the other half is trying to portrait her as a victim.

Is it so difficult for you guys to actually admit that abortion has both positive and negative effects? As with all things that can have several impacts, you need to weight the differences up against each other. Every potential mom comes from a different background, carries a different mental baggage, have different income (if any), and live in different situations. Then you have the fact that every conception happens differently. Add in all the medical problems, like bleeder sickness, small hips, blood poisoning, drinking and drug use in the 9 months leading to the birth (which often is not caused by LSD, pot and such drugs, but medicine given by the doctor)... and you have an unlimited different scenarios.

In some cases an abortion is the only way the mother will survive, but the mother has the final vote. If she wants to have the baby, no-one will stop her.

Sometimes the girl was raped, and who the hell are we to say that she must give birth to the baby? It's is her choice. Personally, if I was a girl, I wouldn't carry a rapist's child inside of me for 9 months. The weight of a growing baby, has severe implications. The back will hunch, and many women can't stand upright after carrying a child up to birth. It also greatly cripples you physically. You don't have the energy needed to go through the day as usual. Many women also feels ugly during this time, and are afraid of even leaving the house. All this builds up the stress levels enormously, and if you think such a girl will not scream out at her stomach and call the little child in there a bastard, then you are in for a surprise. In order for a baby to be healthy both physically and mentally, it needs the love of its mom during its time in development. A raped woman is rarely capable of loving the offspring of the rape. Then you are faced with the possibility of having to cut open you stomach in order to give birth. What started as a rape (which is gruesome enough in itself) will turn into 9 months of a tormenting hell for both the mother and the child, and the mother (and child) will have medical problems after the birth. I don't think any woman would want that, but... people are different. Some might want to go through with it. I wouldn't. I would've found a stick or a needle and tried to perform an abortion on myself (if abortions were illegal). And self-abortions are a huge problem. It happens everywhere where abortions are illegal, and it often results in the woman bleeding to death. Point is... The woman should decide.

And what about incest? If the father rapes his daughter, and she gets pregnant, what should be done? The father should be sent to jail, and the girl should be given the choice to decide for herself. If she chooses to have the baby, then she should be informed about the complications with inbreeding and so on, but... it should still be her choice.

If a mother is in a difficult situation, and knows that she has no way to buy food and provide shelter for a baby, again... it is her choice whether she wants abortion or not.

And the same goes for adoption. If the mother wants to go through with a birth, because she believes having an abortion is the same as murder, then adoption should be offered as an alternative solution if she don't want the baby, but... she decides.

Those are just the guidelines, but every situation is different. Sometimes it will actually be necessary to perform an abortion or adoption agains the mothers will, but... No-one should ever force a woman to go through with GIVING birth, if the woman doesn't want to!

Childbirth and abortion is a woman's world. All men should just bugger off and mind their own business. We have no saying in the matter.

Has any of you guys noticed that the women has abandoned this topic, while the men still argue about things they know nothing about? Think a little about that...

[PrejudiceSucks]

Yes, that's true. Sorry females if we've offended you by partaking in a debate we have no place in.

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by PrejudiceSucks@Sep 21 2005, 10:26 PM
Yes, that's true. Sorry females if we've offended you by partaking in a debate we have no place in.

So you turned into a male agian... Weren't you a female once? And I know I asked you this already, because I'm more then sure you've been changing the gender in your profile...

Anyway:
YES - Tom I agree that there are cases where abortion is the best way to go. And NO, men will never know what it's like to carry a baby or to give birth to it. And YES - there are positive and negative sides to abortion. But then again there are positive sides of drug abuse also, still I don't agree to it.

Abortion and drug abuse aren't the same - so maybe that example isn't the best one, still...

My opinion still stands. I am against abortion! There are cases where I would recomend abortion myself (and I named a few at the very begining of this thread - like rape), but those are the exceptions to the rule.

My main objection is to the use of abortion as a prevention of the side effects of sex. I think that having an abortion simply because you don't want to have a baby, but you couldn't withhold yourself from having sex - it NOT acceptable. If a girl had to have sex (even with contraception) and still got pregnent - she should not be alowed to terminate that embrio. Why should a future human life be killed, to support her lust?

I know - you'll say that it's easy for me to say, because I never will get pregnent. But that's got nothing to do with it.
It's because I'm convinced people are too obsesed with sex and shouldn't have so much of it (at least not if they aren't prepared to take the full consequences - and giving birth is one of them). There is no need for teenagers (especially ages between 12-17) to even have sex - yet more and more of them have it - because they don't need to carry the consequences. I'm also very much against people treating sex as nothing more then a pleasurable excercize (regarthless of the age group) - and they too are taking comfort in knowing they won't have to deal with the side effects.

So I am against abortion, but every rule alows exceptions. If the situation is really such, that an abortion should be performed - the rules should be ignored.
So abortion will become an exception - not the rule! And people (both women and men) would not take it too easily!