«

[Japo]

In order for the poll to be useful, please refrain from voting randomly if you don't know anything about the topic. You're still free to do so, I'm only asking you politely.

I've recently got interested in virtual machines, yes I know nothing beats or comes near DOSBox to emulate a DOS machine, but I'm talking about emulating any OS here. I finally summoned the will to install this software in order to take some screenshots from Hind, a Win95 game whose colours were screwed through Prn Scr, but now the main reason for my interest though is that I'm a geek, always been.

Somebody has to start so I'll tell you my own experience, which extends all the way back to yesterday. First I installed MS's Virtual PC. Some say it's too inefficient, but I don't think that's the issue since an advanced 3D game like Hind works wonderfully in a Win98 virtual machine. Also Faery Tale Adventure II, which has issues with DOSBox and runs slow at 40,000 cycles with dynamic core. FTA2 runs much better than in DOSBox, just like it ran perfectly in my old Win98 system. I think FTA2 was programmed for DOS but with Win95 in mind, actually it's more problematic to run it under DOS6 than under Win9X.

However for example and ancient flight sim like Jetfighter II runs slow, yet it's obviously much less advanced than Hind. Wacky Wheels as another example runs fine during races but the menus are sluggish. Quake on the other hand runs too fast to play! :blink: Believe it, it runs okay with Moslo at 30 per cent or less of CPU full power! That's the most astonishing thing, that it depends on the program, not the virtual machine. For JF2 is equally slow if I run it from Windows 98 rebooted in "DOS mode" or if I run them in a separate DOS6 virtual machine! Within Win98 it won't even run, it does strange things to RAM, the same things that make it crash in DOSBox, and either it crashes, or Windows shows a warning if run in protected mode. JF2 is a little bugger though, it runs at proper speed in the real DOS partition of my old machine, but the image flickers, hardware related I guess.

I ventured that if advanced 3D games like Hind or Quake run fine, perhaps DOS games run slow because of too much CPU power. So I tried Moslo but what I got was JF2 and WW's menus running more slowly, surprisingly enough. :P

So Virtual PC is great for emulating other versions of Windows, and that's exactly what Microsoft intends it to, but not so for running DOS programs. Then I installed VMware. My first unpleasant surprise was that I haven't yet got the sound to work. Virtual PC emulates a Sound Blaster 16, which is just perfect, whereas VMware emulates a "Sound Blaster Audio API" according to its help resource. I just don't know what that means and where to get the drivers for DOS, or simply how to get the damn sound working in a DOS machine in VMware, so somebody please tell me, I would be enormously grateful. In Virtual PC I only needed the good old "SET BLASTER=...". In VMware it won't work and not knowing what to do I tried with the SB16 emulation drivers from my SBPCI128, which get me sound with that card in the real DOS partition of my old system, but that won't do the trick (error report --could some parameters in the EMM386 line of CONFIG.SYS fix this?). Besides that method sucks big time because it requires EMM386.EXE, and the DOS7 version of it into the bargain, that means no games that conflict with EMM386.EXE, and less compatibility.

So there's no sound for the moment being. :not_ok: As for the speed, I only tested a couple in VMware as well as in Virtual PC. Quake runs at proper speed, no Moslo required. Wacky Wheels runs great, both races and menus. Jetfighter II won't even start --yes I know it's a little bugger, but I have fond memories of it, which I'll have to discard I guess. Besides I prefer VMware's interface (who thought nobody would mind about Virtual PC's hijacking the right shift key!?), so it would be my primary option, but first I'd have to make the sound work. Maybe I'll try with FreeDOS, maybe it comes with its own appropriate drivers for whatever VMware emulates --maybe I can copy them to DOS6 and maybe they'll work. I haven't even tried Win98 in VMware yet, I don't know if my Second Edition CD will have the sound drivers, in my old Win98 machine my SBPCI128 needed its own CD.

I'd greatly appreciate any info about the features and performance of any virtualization package, if some of you experienced these problems or others and how to solve them. Does it happen the same to you, that the older the game, the slower it runs?

[The Fifth Horseman]

I've used Virtual PC 2004 on several occasions. It lacks some of the features of DosBox, but is not really bad overall.

[Geezer]

I have downloaded Virtual PC and it seems pretty straightforward on how to set up emulation for versions of Windows but it doesn't give any direction on how to set up DOS emulation. Japofran (or anyone), would you like to lend some assistance? The download has no useful documentation.

[The Fifth Horseman]

You'll need floppy images of the preferred DOS version (or CD image, if there is one). Bootable ones.

Then it goes fairly similar to setting up Windows (eg, set up a virtual HDD, mount the floppy/CD images etc).

[Geezer]

Thanks Horseman.



After I set up the hard drive and run the VM it asks for the bootable media. Then I insert the bootable DOS floppy it will install DOS on the virtual hard drive. Right?



And don't say virtually.

[The Fifth Horseman]

After I set up the hard drive and run the VM it asks for the bootable media.[/b]

Nope. You have to enter VM's BIOS settings first and make sure it boots from the floppy first.

Then I insert the bootable DOS floppy it will install DOS on the virtual hard drive. Right?[/b]

No. You need the installation disk (not the same thing). Bootfloppy would only enable you to run DOS on that machine, without installing it.

[Geezer]

No. You need the installation disk (not the same thing). Bootfloppy would only enable you to run DOS on that machine, without installing it. [/b]

Yes, I meant the bootable install disk. (Disk 1) Thanks.

[Japo]

(Geezer seems to have understood it right away but I'll explain the basics of the whole thing for the rest of the people who might be interested but don't know a thing about this. I myself was asking but now I realize that many people will post here their experiences if they're given a start, since few people seem to use this kind of software in the first place.)

What this software emulates is a machine (or several different machines), not the software in it, not even the OS. Yeah right DOSBox does emulate the OS (DOS to be precise) as well, but these more generic programs don't, when you choose the OS while creating a virtual machine you're only telling Virtual PC (or whichever program) that the machine you want to create should be appropriate for that OS, but you'll have to install the OS and any other software yourself.

It's easy if you think that a virtual machine is (or should be) just like a real machine, blank, without anything pre-installed. Yeah nowadays all computers come with pre-installed OS and extensive software, but if the Virtual PC download included installers for every possible OS, you can figure how big it would be. Plus they can't provide OS licenses freely, installing a pirated OS into a virtual machine is piracy just like doing it in a real one, you'll be using it the same.

It's not usually necessary to access the BIOS setup, the default boot sequence uses to be: first the BIOS looks in the floppy drive for a bootable disc, if the floppy disc is not bootable it asks for another or for it to be removed; if there's no floppy it looks in the hard drive; and lastly if there's no bootable hard drive (no OS installed or damaged) it looks in the CD drive; and if there's no bootable CD either, the machine will fail to load any OS just like happened to Geezer and you won't be able to do a thing with it until you provide a bootable disc. The order of this sequence is what you can change in the BIOS setup, but usually it's not necessary as you'll see. I've also seen BIOSes --in real harware machines-- that let you boot from the CD drive even when a bootable (with OS installed) hard disc is present without the nuissance of accessing the setup --and then accesing it a second time to restore the default settings-- by simply pressing a key at the right time.

Your OS installer will include a bootable floppy disc or CD, or an image file thereof. Just insert the disc and tell the virtualization program that you want the virtual machine to have the same floppy or CD drive as your real host machine; or tell the program where the image file is so that the program can mount it. If you insert/mount the installation disc (floppy or CD), the machine will boot from the installation disc just like you intend to, no matter if you're using a floppy or a CD, since there's no OS installed in the hard drive.

I'll be fiddling further and posting here the results, stay tuned for more rock'n roll.

[Japo]

Well I've been fiddling around, experimenting in a more extensive way. Let's get it organized:

Microsoft Virtual PC emulating a Windows machine. As I said this is great. Microsoft intends Virtual PC precisely to solve any compatibility issue between different Windows versions. I've only tried Win98 but the performance is surprisingly good, and I've heard that there are people running Vista as a guest in a virtual machine within a WinXP host. The only requirement is having enough RAM for both the host OS --the one installed in your real machine-- and all guest OSes --the ones installed in your virtual machines-- running at the same time. When RAM is depleted in a virtual machine it's no disaster of course, it resorts to virtual memory --it uses the hard drive as RAM-- just like a real one, but that means far worse performance because RAM is way faster than hard discs.

So for the record, if what you want is emulating a Windows machine, for example to run programs that ran well in a previous version of Windows but no longer in your current one, and the compatibility mode won't do the trick, MS Virtual PC is the way to go and you'll be surprised at the good performance. Plus don't be afraid at virtualization because this software is really easy to use, *way easier than DOSBox* for example --although that's an unfair comparison because both serve different purposes. The only difficulty is that you'll have to install the OS yourself, but that amounts to inserting/mounting the installation disc and blindly following the displayed instructions; an OS is only software, installing an OS is in essence just like installing any other program. Also MS Virtual PC officially "supports" only certain versions of Windows as hosts, and warns you hereof when installing, but it works all right in my "unsupported" WinXP Home, and all reports I've heard say it works in the unsupported versions too.

VMware emulating a Windows machine. Just... don't. It's not nice to watch. I've only tested Win98 as well so be warned, but the performance was awful, I couldn't believe the humongous difference with VPC. It's not that advanced programs or games run slow, it's that Windows itself is hardly functional. Not only the speed, for some reason the drivers for the monitor wouldn't install, and they install all right both in my old machine I replaced and in the other Win98 virtual machine created with MS Virtual PC. Seemingly the video card emulated by VMware wasn't recognized by Win98 as any it has drivers for, that's just unforgivable because Win98SE came with drivers for most hardware of its time. I was astonished to learn that not having the drivers equalled not being able of going above 640x480 and few colours.

So as far as I know, having tested only Win98, Windows in VMware is a no-no. Nobody knows Windows better than Microsoft, so use Microsoft's Virtual PC to emulate a Windows machine.

Virtual PC emulating a DOS machine. Now it's VPC which just won't work. Right you'll be able to install DOS in a virtual machine, VPC will emulate a Sound Blaster 16 (A220 I5 D1 H5 P330 T6) which is just perfect for DOS, but if you try to run any game in this fine working system, most likely it will run and it will feature sound, but it will be very slow making it unplayable. My exception was Quake that, being an advanced 3D game, run way too fast to play instead of slow, it could be forced to run properly with Mo'slo. Even at the DOS prompt itself the keyboard responds badly. Maybe it's that the virtual machine's processor is a Pentium IV, and perhaps old games run slow because they don't understand the processor's architecture whereas Quake is recent enough to be more compatible, but then a Pentium IV is overkill and it makes the game run too fast. It's a shame that it's precisely a P4 what's emulated, since my old computer has a P3 and old games run perfectly in its real DOS partition. It may be something else as well, but it's obvious that Microsoft isn't concerned about emulating a DOS machine since it has no commercial interest --and on top of it there's already a virtual DOS machine called DOSBox which already does any trick and is simply unsurpassable.

In short, DOS will work fine in VPC, with sound, the conventional drivers for the mouse and CD-ROM will work, but apart from fiddling with the OS itself just for the heck of it there's hardly anything you'll be able to do with it.

VMware emulating a DOS machine. Now the speed is better on average. Not perfect, not good, but definitely better than in VPC. A couple of games run just right, others better than in VPC, others very slow. (Quake will run at the appropriate speed without need of Mo'slo.) The conventional drivers for mouse and CD-ROM will work. But there are two inconveniences. The first one is a very big one: I didn't get the sound to work, and I think it can't be done with the version of the software I used --the one you can download right now. The sound card emulated by VMware isn't compatible with DOS. My Sound Blaster PCI128 drivers from my old real machine made it sound in Win98 --I didn't need drivers in the Windows machines created with Virtual PC because VPC emulates a SB16. But if I tried the same trick than in my old real machine to get sound in DOS with an emulated SB16 --the same trick Win98 does when "rebooting in DOS mode"--, it didn't work. I was even more bewildered when I rebooted the Windows machine in DOS mode to see what it did differently, but since it did the same, it didn't work either; the Win98 machine had sound in Windows, but in "DOS mode" (DOS v7) the initialization failed just like it failed in my other machine with DOS v6. It might be due to the weird parameters of the card emulated by VMware, IRQ 9 (!?) and memory port 1080. The real SBPCI128 in my old real machine has a usual IRQ 5 and port E440 and it emulates SB16 in real DOS all right. I don't know the reason for these weird settings. Also searching through the Web I found several reports that you could change the emulated card by VMware by editing a given file which is in plain text mode. I think they talked about different VMware software or previous versions or something like that, but I've found the file, the line, edited it, but it causes VMware to crash when trying to boot the virtual machine. So as far as I know, and I've investigated quite a lot, VMware emulates only one card, with very strange parameters for some reason, which won't work in DOS even with the usual emulation drivers.

Playing without sound sucks, but the case is that even if you could get sound in VMware it's not a good idea to use Virtual PC or VMware to emulate a DOS machine. There's a virtual DOS machine with OS included you all know, it's called DOSBox and no generic virtualization software will perform half as well. It was unsurpassable before, and now there's a new version, 0.70, even more compatible and faster. DOSBox is more compatible than having your old real 486 lying around at home. So if you want to run a different version of Windows without installing it on a real partition and so use Virtual PC; but if you want to emulate DOS forget about any generic virtualization software and use DOSBox.

Next I might be trying the emulation of other OSes. I have an ancient copy of OS/2 (a version from the early 90s) lying around at home and although I will hardly have any use for it I could give it a go. Also a virtual machine is the perfect place to try that nasty thing so many people talk about, Linux.

[Geezer]

Japofran, excellent post.



Question, though. Before I was always able to get away with using my Win 98 upgrade cd even when I was installing over DOS. When it would tell me that it could not find an eligible version of windows to upgrade I would swap out the cd with my Win 95 installation cd and tell it to look in the cdrom drive. Then I would switch back to my Win 98 cd and it would proceed as normal. Is Virtual PC going to force me to have a full version of Win 98? Is there any reason I should not be able to do the same thing that I did before? Guess I'll try it and find out.