«

[taikara]

I think one of the things BloodPigggy is getting at is the fact that we might have better games released today if piracy didn't run rampant.

You see, less money for the game companies from people who would otherwise have to pay for the product means less money with which to pay people to design and create games... which means, buggy games with crappy code, and poorly executed games with a lot of hype for a little payload.

If you really want to support the gaming industry, then BUY new games, regardless of whether you think they'll be buggy, regardless of whether you might be disappointed. The only way to fix the problem is to support the genres you are interested in.

Abandonware is a gray issue, as these games have already generated the majority of the profits they will yield - that is why they are "abandoned." Downloading these games for won't really hurt the industry as much as pirating new games does. There are a few exceptions - beloved titles could probably still make quite a bit if they were trussed up, repackaged, and redistributed - lots of Sierra titles, for example... but that's why these games are ESA protected, why ESA cracks down on abandonware distros that don't have permission to distribute.

In short, I'm very anti-piracy. It just doesn't make much sense for the long run, as it breaks down the economy (and is also a contributor to the high price of games, I might add) though I'm sure people appreciate it in the more selfish, "Hey, free games!" sort of short run.

[Blood-Pigggy]

Good little speech there Taikara.
That was certainly one of the things I'm concerned about, but we all certainly know that piracy will continue no matter what.

It's just excellent that we have places like Abandonia that takes the developers into consideration and gives the public entertainment.

For that I salute you.

[Tom Henrik]

And let's not forget that the companies that are under the ESA protection, are generally the companies with the best games available, and co-incidently the richest companies.

id Software, Sierra, LucasArts, Psygnosis, Interplay, Electronic Arts, Mindscape and so on...

And yes, Interplay is not very active these days, but can anyone really say that Fallout is a bad game?

Most of the games that are ESA protected are still available in the shops. That was why ESA was founded to begin with. To protect the rights of old games still being sold. You'd be surprised how many jerks there are out there who think that any game older than 5 years should be free for everyone.

If you want to be angry with anyone, string up a warez-supporter. It will only help the society at large, and give game companies the respect they deserve.

You know what they say...
"Kill a warez-supporter today, buy a great game tomorrow."

[DeathDude]

Piracy is a huge issue in the video game industry now a days, last figure I remember was that the industry loses close to $2 billion a year on piracy, I can't stand piracy of video games, I mean even with music and movies to a less extent but at the same time those artists make a ton of more money than game developers could even dream of making. Every time we see someone pirating, your not only hurting the industry, your hurting the developers hard work, less profit for the company on a game, means prices go up for future games, your piracy may even take out a company in the process, well maybe not but it could happen. Even with games being buggy and the argument, uh well I'm testing out a game and if it turns out well I'll buy it, ha ha ha, nice one, not! Yes games are expensive, but if you want to continue to see them being produced buy em, don't go the easy way out and just burn it, support the industry that you enjoy.

Console side this next gen we may see less piracy hard to say, but still a long way to go on the pc side as long as games continue to be produced via cd's.

[Blood-Pigggy]

Originally posted by DeathDude@Oct 17 2005, 07:35 PM
Pyour piracy may even take out a company in the process, well maybe not but it could happen.

Remember Looking Glass? It happened to them, rampant piracy of games like Thief and Terra Nova broke them.

[Evad]

For arguments sake, I don't agree that the price of computer games is effected by piracy even remotely close to the extent of the demand. I heard a figure a while back that the computer gaming industry is worth as much as cigarettes, alcohol and the movie industry all combined, The figure was around 400 billion a year. You'd think that with a market like that they could afford to invest some of their profit margin to development of good titles. The only reason that "they" increase the price of the games and cry about lost revenue is because they predict for profit, and if profit wains in anyway guess who pays for it? I am tired of paying for stuff that I am disatisfied with, and I know I am not alone, and as long as there are pirated samples around I will use them. On abandonware, like someone said earlier, I personally would be complimented if someone wanted to play a game I made in the 80's.

[Galadrin]

Originally posted by Blood-Pigggy@Oct 18 2005, 12:39 AM
Remember Looking Glass? It happened to them, rampant piracy of games like Thief and Terra Nova broke them.

Yay for sarcasm! (sorry, my dementia must have been acting up when I wrote this... I read it at first to say "never broke them." Then again, it didn't help that their publisher was Eidos.:not_ok

@Tom:

Huh, and here I thought the saying was more along the lines of "Kill a CEO today, save some lives tomorrow"

[taikara]

Originally posted by Evad@Oct 18 2005, 01:59 AM
For arguments sake, I don't agree that the price of computer games is effected by piracy even remotely close to the extent* of* the demand. I heard a figure a while back that the computer gaming industry is worth as much as cigarettes, alcohol and the movie industry all combined, The figure was around 400 billion a year. You'd think that with a market like that they could afford to invest some of their profit margin to development of good titles. The only reason that "they" increase the price of the games and cry about lost revenue is because they predict for profit, and if profit wains in anyway* guess who pays for it? I am tired of paying for stuff that I am disatisfied with, and I know I am not alone, and as long as there are pirated samples around I will use them. On abandonware, like someone said earlier, I personally would be complimented if someone wanted to play a game I made in the 80's.

I do believe that you are pulling figures out of thin air.

A quick Googling revealed that of various entertainment industries, including film, sports, music, etc. put the gaming industry at the very bottom at about 10-20 billion a year.

Film is around 40 billion, music is around 45 billion, sports is predicted to be around 200 billion, and the tobacco industry, well... I didn't find any rough figures as to the net turnover of tobacco industry profits, but let's just say that if they're paying out in the 200-300 billion in lawsuits per year, and still going strong, I think they're probably doing just fine.

Granted, I don't believe everything I read on the 'net - I just scanned a few market news articles and averaged the figures.

However, my very brief research seems to indicate that you really are just arguing for argument's sake.

Like other entertainment industries (I'm not including tobacco), game production requires specialized skills and very expensive technology to produce. Unlike other entertainment industries, the gaming industry does not have a specialized market that allows its product to still have a benefit if piracy reduces profits. You can't pirate a football game, or a concert, or the experience of going to the movie theater. If tickets are scalped, somebody still has to buy them. Sure, there's forged tickets, but that's really rare compared to intellectual property piracy.

Basically, if you pirate a game, you have defeated the economical purpose of its production - which is to allow the company to generate revenue with which to continue creating games. There is no specialized market. You steal, copy, and distribute intellectual property, and you're stealing all it has to offer, without leaving it an alternative avenue with which to collect the revenue the company needs to continue producing.

So, if you've got a lower-than-desired revenue costs, and have to decide between being able to pay a couple good programmers and artists and paying a lot of crappy programmers and artists, or neglecting to upgrade your technology as much as you can and falling behind in the market standards and upgrading your technology, but having to sack a bunch of your programmers and artists...

Well, the lower the generated revenue, the greater the logistical nightmare.

Basically, my point is that everyone should just stop complaining and buy a freaking game already :P

Note: Just to make it clear, I searched for market figures on computer gaming, not video gaming, as the computer gaming industry is the most targeted in piracy, and Evad refered specifically to computer gaming. I probably should have checked video gaming as well, which is probably a lot higher, but I didn't, so sorry

[Evad]

Hey Tai, good to talk to you again btw.

Yes, I was very hesitant to state that figure. All I can say is that I have purchased roughly ten games this year, and only about 3 held my interest. Piracy is not a good thing, and theres no way I can justify it I know, especially since my figures are weak, but I feel just as ripped off by the game developers as of late as I do about pirates effecting prices of the games. I suppose ethically, one should not pirate, I guess I have some deleting to do....

[omg]

i agree that the computer game industry is damaged by piracy. and if something is available for free while it is still for sale then fair enuff that is wrong but i really think they are failing to take into account a few things
a: we have all played like a million fps's so oddly enuff we arnt buying them in droves anymore
b: ditto resource building rts's
c: quite a few mmporg's around these days..
the thing is there profit curve has gone on a downward slant but then didnt that happen to computer gaming in the 80's?
so they are panicking a little because obviosly they dont want a repeat of that.
but in general across the board retailers are facing a loss of profit at the moment.
credit cards gave them a little boost but now evryone is realising that being 15-20k in debt along with a mortgage and car is not fun. so they are buying less.

also we all now own so many games. partly i think they are a victim of there own sucsess, its getting to a point where even on just a gig machine there is such a huge library of choice released to your spec pc that there is less and less impitous for consumers to buy the latest games.

also i know this has been said on here before (cant remeber by who) but im going to reiterate it a bit, by example
LOTR estimated total budget 273 million
doom3 i think roughthly 10 million (if someone has a diff figure show me the link) and that is including a lot of global promotion
lotr dvd costs you 17.99 on release it was only a couple of months untill it went down to 12.99 and lower
how much was doom 3 in game when it came out i am pretty sure i saw it for 35 pounds..
now lets say for the sake of arguement that i actually had bothered to get a machine together to play that game
im not going to go out and spend not that far under the cash i get for a shift on a game.
nor are a lot of people.
they put the game out for 35 then gradually lower the price, so they can milk the people who are willing to pay that untill the sales drop then they boost sales by lowering the price. but they fail to take into account the millions (globally billions) of people for whom 35 pounds is a lot to spend on something that has no use (except entertainment)
but the thing is the person who doesnt have 35 pounds to spare on that, if they sees it second hand they will buy it.
if a freind of theres has it they will pester them for a copy.
there has been goverment inquiries into the inflated cost of computer and video games.
oddly enuff when the goverment investigates big buisness nothing really happens except goverment money being spent for lots of people to sit around talk and do nothing.
i have no sympathy for there winging and i found a lot of it as i went on a bit of a research mission. i think they have shot themselfs in the foot.

so the downwards slant in there profits is not just piracy.
piracy has a negative effect on the industry.
there own high costs have a negative effect.
the downtrend in consumer spending has a negative effect all retailers are feeling it
the availabilty of cheap good consoles is also going to kill computer gaming just like the 80's
the overavailability of different flavours of basically the same thing is definatly going to have a negative effect.
but they harp on about piracy as being the main cause.
i would say its probably a little less than they think though.