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[yoga]

Originally Posted by VanDine

and still have very good memories of those time, even though I didn't finish the game. It is nice seeing somebody still plays it nowadays.
BTW nobody here mentioned yet that W7 Gold edition has voice narrative which IMO is very good addition, also graphics are greatly improved but that may do with its being version for Macintosh computers, games ported to Mac always had better graphics than PC versions (another example of better graphics is Prince of Persia II - Shadow and the Flame I think it was called - another great game and one of the few I did finish.
As for swimming in W7 which most pple seem to ignore, I remember at the very start where you land on shore of some water, I somehow took liking to exploring water and wandered about in water there which helped me pick up some swimming skills. I think I trained them a bit someplace later and I recall vaguely that after I completed the town with carnival (was it Ratkin Ruins or maybe Nyctalinth town?), where you had to use the water slide... that was great fun. I did go as far as some witch (or was it Giant) forest or witch caves or something like that, then I went back to New City (I think) where later in the game you are supposed to get the boat (I did also get to do the New City sewers underground and found the puzzle there which I think unlocks the boat but I failed miserably at the puzzle) - then instead of trying for the boat I simply started wading into the water on the town waterfront and battled some sea monsters, I think I kept swimming back to shore to recuperate and to stock up on some swiming related supplies and then I went for it for real, we swam into the wide blue yonder, not knowing whither we went and finally after an epic swim we reached an island, not sure now how many of us reached the island shore, at least one or two of the party had drowned on that perilous journey and had to be left behind. But I felt like I did something in the game which maybe nobody was expected to do such crazy thing like swimming for it without the boat LOL (swimming was also needed in that town where that carnival was if I recall correctly). I think I also swam across that river crossing (that's also the place where you can go exploring upstream or is it downstream and you find some box with much needed fighting items I think, maybe some axe or hammer.... its been so long I have only smattering of memories )

I did some exploration on the island in the dungeon (was that island where upon landing the sphinx guarding some entrance asked some funny question to be admitted? I must say the game developers put some humor into those riddles but I forgot what the question was, the sphinx basically answers it for you if you answer incorrectly, which was so funny I remember how I laughed at it for days on end when I remembered it ) but on that island either I didn't have the items I needed to have like keys for use in dungeon or I wasn't high enough level - I think the problem was I lost those chars in the swim and had incomplete party, I am not sure which it was, and I just abandoned the game then and there. I couldn't swim back but I suppose I could have loaded an older savegame but then I thought I knackered the whole game anyway .
But I had great fun and don't quite understand negative reviews of this atmospheric game. I liked the turn based fights (first time ever for me, I mostly played real time fighting rpgs like DM II) and everything. After reading this forum here of W7 to page 25 I found with surprise that you guys do play it after all your initial misgivings (based among other on the wholly negative review on some external link given here in those early pages - before p25 here).
I never was one of those early hardy and geeky dungeon players who draw maps but this time I did draw them, I was pasting together maps of my progress in game and I think I could still find them somewhere, I have itching to return to this great game and play it properly and finish it this time. I still have the boxed gold edition which I got cheap when it went on sale (because I played in late nineties when the game was no longer new) and also have the old trusty mac to go with it, which I no longer use as I have long ago went the PC way, by the time of win98.

Welcome aboard, dear VanDine.

Your slave is dedicated fan of RPG.
I am one of those early hardy and geeky dungeon players who draw maps.
..and my ex-companion Gnadige Sacred_Path was bored of W7 and left the game.
Well, You are kindly invited to grab the sword or AK 47 and join to me in our crusade to glory.
So, start the famous Mac and press any key to start this nice game..

swimming
All my team members have 10+ points in Swimming skill. Still i do not try to swim some river or lake.

..Yes, Prince of Persia 2 is great game. But i think DM 2 is the best. Never in my RPG life i met so terrible opps. Even the game is not so long after appearence of these Minions, yoga was under tension every moment. Y'now they appeared everywhere. No save point or place.
I used to create my guard minions before every restore moment.Do You remembered that nasty thief, who cryied - This is mine- and ..voila my sword is not mine...

..Hmmm.. i read about the negative reactions for W7 in Net and i prepared about a year before start this game:
But my opinion is (Sry, dear Kmonster), that even colored and with better graphic W7 is not so good as W6.
Repeat: This is my personal opinion.
As Arena is better than Daggerfall,
as Prince of Persia is better than PP 2 etc..
But this is another story.

Location: I reached this MUNKHARAMA town but not entered.
Status: All commandos are level 9.

[yoga]

Is it fatal i killed Lord Galiere before meeting Capt.Boerigard?
I duno that have to be peaceful. Sorry.
Have to grinding because i needed Identify spell.

[VanDine]

Originally Posted by yoga

Welcome aboard, dear VanDine.

Your slave is dedicated fan of RPG.
I am one of those early hardy and geeky dungeon players who draw maps.
So, start the famous Mac and press any key to start this nice game..

swimming
All my team members have 10+ points in Swimming skill. Still i do not try to swim some river or lake.

..Yes, Prince of Persia 2 is great game. But i think DM 2 is the best. Never in my RPG life i met so terrible opps. Even the game is not so long after appearence of these Minions, yoga was under tension every moment. Y'now they appeared everywhere. No save point or place.
I used to create my guard minions before every restore moment.Do You remembered that nasty thief, who cryied - This is mine- and ..voila my sword is not mine...

... even colored and with better graphic W7 is not so good as W6.
As Arena is better than Daggerfall,
as Prince of Persia is better than PP 2 etc..

Thanks. Drawing maps was traditional domain of those hardy pioneers who played 'text dungeon' games virtually from 'command line' and without drawing your progress you'd be totally lost before long. I am not sure now why I did draw maps of W7, maybe I didn't know they exist on net or whatever. I talk about years 98 99...

After posting I went to look at W7 maps and realize now I got many names and locations wrong (the island I swam to was Isle of Crypts, carnival was Funhouse in Munkharama...
I remember there was one house somewhere past the first City where every time you entered, it triggered attack from like 10 brute fighters and that was good place to stay for a bit and train your party in repeated fights to get some decent levels.

I'd be inclined to agree with you regarding W6 and if I should replay W7 I would want first to play W6 (also can import party to W7 from it)

But I am sucker for pretty pictures, and I got to play games by the time those 'second' editions were coming out, that's why I played DM2 and PoP2 and W7 and only got the first editions of DM and PoP and W6 later on and the more primitive graphics put me off a bit (on the other hand, I don't like too spiffy graphics or 3d that today's games have)

DM2 was among the few games I finished. I read here about your struggles entering the Skullkeep, I remember I also needed advice to run backwards into the doors but even that didn't do the trick. I finally solved it by dropping some items because I think their weight made me move just a bit too slow. As for thiefs I think I dropped my more precious stuff on floor in one of those shops which were fairly safe places, if I recall properly. The idea was that nobody can steal from you what you don't have with you. I liked the axe throwing cavemen because you could sell those axes to shop and buy supplies for Skullkeep. Battling the Minions, I think I was able to dispose of them fairly fast but don't remember anymore what I used on them. I liked the tunes and gloomy weather outside Skullkeep, that was great, inside figuring the puzzles was also great. The game finishing like in most games is not where enjoynment of the game comes from, it is the journey there that counts most.

PoP2 was my first game I ever finished to end. I played on Mac and got really good at it. The equivalent keypoint of entering the Skullkeep was jumping those pillars midway through the game. I spent ungodly hours on it, I had drawn the plan of their layout and I was able to finish this level without killing any of those flying heads with blood chilling cries , I just learned to run this level so fast and jump the pillars in full run that I escaped them. I didn't need to drop down first to dispose of them to be in peace when on top of the pillars. Really hard point was the very last pillar and the last flying head but I managed to escape that one too, but its not anything easily repetable even if you got it all down to automatic.
Also remember the earlier key point in the game where you get up on that rope bridge. I polished each level untill I was able to complete it almost automatically, everything pat down
Of course I have even right now PoP1 on my PC but I never got into it somehow as yet all those years.

I didn't play Arena but I played Daggerfall, which I didn't finish (also would believe you about Arena being better). Somewhere maybe halfway through the game I was in one of those optional dungeons where I couldn't find 'its point' to complete it to get anything out of it and I gave up after running around inside it many times over and not finding any point to it. That was badly designed game IMO, you just don't do things like that to players. I could forgive this one dissapointment but problem was it was more like rule with this game. Besides I don't like much 3D because it gives me headaches and stomach upsets after longer playing. I've always been a bit sensitive to motion sickeness in real life and those 3D games bring it on, especially in confined spaces in dungeons.

In 2001 I started with online gaming and these single player boxed games suffered accordingly. I played Legend of Mir 2 for some eight years until the company dropped the game, but it runs today still on free unofficial servers. The players are mainly British but there is sizable community of Romanians, Italians, some Americans too. If I can loose a word here for a MMORPG, I'd say LOM2 is worth looking at for anybody who likes these old abandoned games. But of course no online games can equal the likes of Wizardry or Dungeon Master, online gaming has different good points to it.

[yoga]

Originally Posted by VanDine

Thanks. Drawing maps was traditional domain of those hardy pioneers who played 'text dungeon' games virtually from 'command line' and without drawing your progress you'd be totally lost before long. I am not sure now why I did draw maps of W7, maybe I didn't know they exist on net or whatever. I talk about years 98 99...
After posting I went to look at W7 maps and realize now I got many names and locations wrong (the island I swam to was Isle of Crypts, carnival was Funhouse in Munkharama...
I remember there was one house somewhere past the first City where every time you entered, it triggered attack from like 10 brute fighters and that was good place to stay for a bit and train your party in repeated fights to get some decent levels.
I'd be inclined to agree with you regarding W6 and if I should replay W7 I would want first to play W6 (also can import party to W7 from it)
But I am sucker for pretty pictures, and I got to play games by the time those 'second' editions were coming out, that's why I played DM2 and PoP2 and W7 and only got the first editions of DM and PoP and W6 later on and the more primitive graphics put me off a bit (on the other hand, I don't like too spiffy graphics or 3d that today's games have)
DM2 was among the few games I finished. I read here about your struggles entering the Skullkeep, I remember I also needed advice to run backwards into the doors but even that didn't do the trick. I finally solved it by dropping some items because I think their weight made me move just a bit too slow. As for thiefs I think I dropped my more precious stuff on floor in one of those shops which were fairly safe places, if I recall properly. The idea was that nobody can steal from you what you don't have with you. I liked the axe throwing cavemen because you could sell those axes to shop and buy supplies for Skullkeep. Battling the Minions, I think I was able to dispose of them fairly fast but don't remember anymore what I used on them. I liked the tunes and gloomy weather outside Skullkeep, that was great, inside figuring the puzzles was also great. The game finishing like in most games is not where enjoynment of the game comes from, it is the journey there that counts most.
PoP2 was my first game I ever finished to end. I played on Mac and got really good at it. The equivalent keypoint of entering the Skullkeep was jumping those pillars midway through the game. I spent ungodly hours on it, I had drawn the plan of their layout and I was able to finish this level without killing any of those flying heads with blood chilling cries , I just learned to run this level so fast and jump the pillars in full run that I escaped them. I didn't need to drop down first to dispose of them to be in peace when on top of the pillars. Really hard point was the very last pillar and the last flying head but I managed to escape that one too, but its not anything easily repetable even if you got it all down to automatic.
Also remember the earlier key point in the game where you get up on that rope bridge. I polished each level untill I was able to complete it almost automatically, everything pat down
Of course I have even right now PoP1 on my PC but I never got into it somehow as yet all those years.

I didn't play Arena but I played Daggerfall, which I didn't finish (also would believe you about Arena being better). Somewhere maybe halfway through the game I was in one of those optional dungeons where I couldn't find 'its point' to complete it to get anything out of it and I gave up after running around inside it many times over and not finding any point to it. That was badly designed game IMO, you just don't do things like that to players. I could forgive this one dissapointment but problem was it was more like rule with this game. Besides I don't like much 3D because it gives me headaches and stomach upsets after longer playing. I've always been a bit sensitive to motion sickeness in real life and those 3D games bring it on, especially in confined spaces in dungeons.
In 2001 I started with online gaming and these single player boxed games suffered accordingly. I played Legend of Mir 2 for some eight years until the company dropped the game, but it runs today still on free unofficial servers. The players are mainly British but there is sizable community of Romanians, Italians, some Americans too. If I can loose a word here for a MMORPG, I'd say LOM2 is worth looking at for anybody who likes these old abandoned games. But of course no online games can equal the likes of Wizardry or Dungeon Master, online gaming has different good points to it.

Wow, very nice analyse of some of my favorite RPG.
You are not Newbie at all.

Excuse me pls. for my rude question (You may not answer it), am i wrong thinking that You are Netherlander?
I am humble Bulgarian.

....Starting my crusade to Orkogre, leaving New city.
Why i have feeling that this game is not terrible hard as i think before? No, no difficulty level. For the brave who killed 2 Faremen in W 6 and poor bad Frank or Lord Chaos this game looks very easy?!!
True or false?
I may kill my opps so fast that after their dead my spells continued to operate.
...
Pop2- I do not remember is this game created by legendary Jordan Mechner and his brother?
PoP 1 i passed for 41 minutes. No need of aux. live bottles and avoiding some traps ( upside down picture if Prince drank some colored potion ).

Pop2 -Yes, i remember very well that battle with the skeleton on the swinging bridge. One have to stand right on the 4-th beam and be ready for bridge collapce. Then turn around and grab the beam in question..
How many minutes yoga trembled with pressed key Shift and waiting for collapce.

Sadly, the next Princes are not so good. I note that after the first 1-2-3 games, the idea is going to hell and new authors think that nice colors and graphics will hide the bad story. NO! Not with yoga..
I do not care about the color graphics (somethime and sound&music).
I played Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion of Elder Scrolls series.
The best is Arena. I politely recommend You this diamond. But start with Race who used the spell Passwall-if my memory serves me well this was Knight.
Then is Morrowind.
Then Daggerfall (Sry, Master Scatty) - Terrible maps. I need 2 lifes to understand the algorithm of these maps. Gladly i have the spell - Return to entrance-.
Oblivion is ...nothing.
Skyrim...never. The story is used to 0%...

DM2 was among the few games I not finished. The reason is very simple.
Stupid yoga used only Mouse to play the game. Fatal mistake!!!
But final boss was too fast and poor yoga who has no training with KB and Mouse simply was unable to kill it. Well, i keep the last save file and maybe .. in a mean time will try to win..

What about Betrayal at Krondor?

[Capo]

Originally Posted by yoga

Is it fatal i killed Lord Galiere before meeting Capt.Boerigard?
I duno that have to be peaceful. Sorry.
Have to grinding because i needed Identify spell.

Hearthless killer!

[Scatty]

Originally Posted by yoga

Sadly, the next Princes are not so good. I note that after the first 1-2-3 games, the idea is going to hell and new authors think that nice colors and graphics will hide the bad story. NO! Not with yoga..
I do not care about the color graphics (somethime and sound&music).

Actually Prince of Persia - The Sands of Time was one of the better games from the series, I think. So was the movie which is based on the game, from 2010, I found it to be pretty good.

Originally Posted by yoga

Then Daggerfall (Sry, Master Scatty) - Terrible maps. I need 2 lifes to understand the algorithm of these maps. Gladly i have the spell - Return to entrance-.

Daggerfall DID have terribly designed dungeon maps (and the very confusing automap), I absolutely agree with you there. I always explored these dungeons only with that portal spell cast before, and using a cheat key to jump among key points in a dungeon to find an item required for side quests. Otherwise they're far too confusing and you could spend hours in them just trying to figure out which way to find the exit, it's been nothing but frustrating. Fortunately the dungeons are much improved (and smaller) in The Elder Scrolls III - Morrowind.

On the subject of killing Lord Galliere - that's no problem at all, in fact you're often pretty much forced to kill him since he blocks your path. If you didn't find and spoken to Capt. Boerigard and took his letter yet, you can't proceed without fighting that Galliere. Besides, he and his called Ashigaru give a lot of experience (IF you survive the battle early on, which is pretty hard) so I always killed him anyway, even if I had the letter to give to him. It's much more fun that way And it doesn't have any consequences for you at all, no other NPCs being upset about him being killed.

[yoga]

Danke sehr.
The Sands of Time was one of the better games from the series, I think.
Sure?
Hmmm... politely disagree.
The new Princes games transform the brave hero in Grasshopper.
More over they have many Time limited tasks, i hate similar tasks.
Tell me, pls, do You know someone who play now some PoP?
I do not remember.
But as i said before:
The Russians said- По вкус и по цвет - товарищи нет..
(There are no comrades on taste and color).
The charisma of the first game is unique.
(Not true for Doom 1, Dune 1). But Doom 3 is crap!

OFF
Master, what is Your opinion about Heretic 1.3 and Heretic 2?

@Caro Capo
Hearthless killer!
Si, si.
Pls. wait for ......


Who passed Wizardry 8?
Sie, Gnadige Kmonster?

In Orkogre dungeon...

[Scatty]

Originally Posted by yoga

Master, what is Your opinion about Heretic 1.3 and Heretic 2?

Love Heretic. Love Hexen and Hexen 2. Never liked nor played much Heretic II. The latter doesn't have much to do with the story of previous games, only the names, and lacks the same epic mood of the previous games, having been an attempt at "cashcow" for squeezing out yet more sales money.
Well, PoP Sand of Time is not the best in the series, of course, the very first game was the best without doubt. But it's certainly far better than the terrible Prince of Persia 3D which came out somewhere around 1999.

Actually I was more than halfway through Wizardry 8 with my imported from Wiz7 Fairy Ninja and Mook Lord double (Wizardry 8, in my humble opinion, is best played with 1-2 characters only - higher levels possible only then) when I decided to start over from level 1 with Felpurr Rogue and Bard to have more challenge. So I'm still at the beginning again (wordplay intended) but have all the fun and more all over. Gotta love Wizardry 8, it has so much replay value.

[yoga]

Originally Posted by Scatty

Love Heretic. Love Hexen and Hexen 2. Never liked nor played much Heretic II. The latter doesn't have much to do with the story of previous games, only the names, and lacks the same epic mood of the previous games, having been an attempt at "cashcow" for squeezing out yet more sales money.
Well, PoP Sand of Time is not the best in the series, of course, the very first game was the best without doubt. But it's certainly far better than the terrible Prince of Persia 3D which came out somewhere around 1999.

Actually I was more than halfway through Wizardry 8 with my imported from Wiz7 Fairy Ninja and Mook Lord double (Wizardry 8, in my humble opinion, is best played with 1-2 characters only - higher levels possible only then) when I decided to start over from level 1 with Felpurr Rogue and Bard to have more challenge. So I'm still at the beginning again (wordplay intended) but have all the fun and more all over. Gotta love Wizardry 8, it has so much replay value.

Abs. agree with above mentioned note!
True is true. (terrible Prince of Persia 3D).
This is the game i stopped 2 minutes before the end.

I see You enjoyed with W8.Nice. W 9?

Help pls. Am i really in Orcogre dungeon?
The enviroment around me changed non stop? What is this? Hidden teleporters?
Do You remember some small living thing (squirrel like) jumping before the team or magical fountain?

[VanDine]

IMHO when the game series changes radically, like from 2d to 3d, you can't compare between them anymore, they are basically like different games that perhaps share only the story behind them, because the game mechanics are so different.

PoP3 'Sands' and later editions are perhaps comparable to some game from the TombRaider series? I've only played TR1 but the latest out looks maybe worth looking at? But that don't belong here on abandonia ...

Yesterday I was working on a ladder outside my place (btw yoga I hail from Czech Republic but long time I lived in Canada where my early gaming took place) and some birds flying by made crowing noises that were just like bird sounds in wizardry7 LOL I felt like I was in game and some turn based fight was just starting - not sure if PC version of W7 has those sounds at start of each encounter?