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[Japo]

But even when defending units counterattack or something, right? Even if it's after some have already been killed. Anyway I fully mastered Civ and Col, but for some reason I'm not that good at this one, even though I completed it even at Impossible difficulty level --conquering the enemies' capitals to paralize all their units...

[Scatty]

When units counterattack not the strength/number of their swords count but the strength of their shields, and also units who have special additional attacks like throwing weapons or first strike can't use them when counterattacking, therefore it's usually better to attack first than to be engaged in counterattack especially with those additional attacks. But not always, attacking Phantom Warriors first for example is worse than defending and letting them come, strangely, though if there's first strike or throwing weapons available then attacking first is still better as then they're killed without even harming the attacking unit. So I'm not entirely sure of the entire mechanism.

[another_guest]

An additional reason why attacking first is often better, is that you can have several of your units gang up and take out an enemy unit completely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scatty @ Jun 29 2006, 05:29 AM) [snapback]240381[/snapback]</div>

When units counterattack not the strength/number of their swords count but the strength of their shields
[/b]

Nonsense.

When 2 units with no first strike or gazes or thrown weapons etc, attack each other, both attacks are resolved simultaneously.

Attacker attacks with his swords, hits are blocked by the defender shields

at the same time

Defender attacks with his swords, hits are blocked by defender shields.

After that figures die.

Why then should you attack first?

Because abilities like thrown, first strike,breathes etc only come into play if you are the attacker. The only exception is gazes (doom,stoning,death) these work also if you are defending.

So if you have any of these abilities you should attack. Or if the opposing unit has any of these abilities, you should attack first to prevent them from using their abilities.

But not always, attacking Phantom Warriors first for example is worse than defending and letting them come,
[/b]

No. Assuming that your unit has no special abilities that apply only when you are the attacker, it makes no difference.

Phaton warriors do have illusionary attacks that ignore shields , so it is not wise to engage them in melee, but if you do choose to do that, attacking first or not makes no difference.

strangely, though if there's first strike or throwing weapons available then attacking first is still better as then they're killed without even harming the attacking unit. So I'm not entirely sure of the entire mechanism.
[/b]

What's so strange. Only attackers get to use first strike and thrown abilities. These abilities occur prior to the normal melee, so if these attacks kill the Phantom warrior before the oridinary melee stage your units don't get hurt.


Here's a timing table.

Phase 1 : Breath*, Thrown*, Gaze (attacker)

Phase 2 : Gaze (defender)

Phase 3 : First strike

Phase 4 : Normal melee (attack/defense) , also life stealing attacks, poison, touch attacks, ,


*Applies to only attacker (i.e the unit initating the melee).

[Scatty]

The fact is still that if you attack phantom warriors first, your default units that you can build at the cities will be damaged badly, but often if you don't attack and let the phantom warriors attack first the unit takes less damage while the warriors are often killed instead. This isn't usually the matter with the high-level heroes with good items as they can deal great damage and have a better chance to hit. Just try it out yourself, you'll see that defending and letting phantom warriors attack is better than attacking them first. I didn't take it out of my imagination, you know, but from playing lots of times and noticing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scatty @ Jul 3 2006, 10:12 PM) [snapback]241312[/snapback]</div>

The fact is still that if you attack phantom warriors first, your default units that you can build at the cities will be damaged badly, but often if you don't attack and let the phantom warriors attack first the unit takes less damage while the warriors are often killed instead. This isn't usually the matter with the high-level heroes with good items as they can deal great damage and have a better chance to hit. Just try it out yourself, you'll see that defending and letting phantom warriors attack is better than attacking them first. I didn't take it out of my imagination, you know, but from playing lots of times and noticing.
[/b]

Sure sounds very anecdotal to me! You need to carry out numerous specific experiments to even come close to proving what you are saying. Selective observation is a very tricky thing when it comes to probabilities.

In any case even if I grant your observations of phantom warriors, what you are proposing (that units counter attack on strength of shields) is unreasonable.

It's possible that illusionary attacks might be a bit loopy in counterattacks, but certainly what you propose makes no sense .

[Scatty]

Oh really? Then why it is so that if you attack the berserkers for example with the hammerheads (or whatever they're called in English), the hammerheads almost don't take any damage while the berserkers are killed in the process? If the berserkers would counterattack with their attack strength which is pretty strong for them too, then the hammerheads would be hurt quite noticeably too, right? But the berserkers usually stand no chance against middle or good units attacking them first in melee, while when the berserkers attack they're 'the' killers (mostly because of the thrown weapons, but also because of the strength of their swords).
I'm all ears to your counter-arguments.

[Japo]

The game manual or something didn't provide information about in-game mechanics?

[Scatty]

Yes you're right, it's lying before me here and it's all covered there. Sorry, the dispute is solved.

[Japo]

I just asked, I didn't know. Now I see there's a link here in Ab to download the manual, and that's what I'm going to do right now.