«

[Playbahnosh]

I voted for nobody. This is mainly becouse I don't think it will change anything to the better...
Yes OMG , it is really disgusting to see how the "big mans" tear each other apart for the money and all... They know how big danger are we in, but they say "We wont be here when the disaster breaks, so I enjoy my life and leave the suffering to the next generation..."

I think they shall die...

And what about all the EU standards for this?

[a1s]

Originally posted by Playbahnosh@Jun 6 2005, 11:20 PM
@a1s

What are you talking about? Are you totally sensless? War is NEVER a good thing, regardless wich side we are on, or which country we live in!!

What I said in my antfarm example, is all happening in real life in the animal world... As I said, I only talk facts...*

fisrst of all, if war is not good, than no war is good, it's as simple as that. and as long as there's no actual fighting involved, I don't see why you can't choose to side with someone. troughout this century europe will remain a powerfull (allthough like I said not the most powerfull) organistion, noone will dare to mess with us If we all reamain together.

as for your example, what is your point? that it is just an ananlogy? well that's what we all see it as, the stuff that happens in nature is just a 'fun fact', and has nothing to do with the discussion.


about the oil barons plot. it all seems to fit, doesn't it? the scientists die, and their tracks are covered by the government, and the evil oligarchs? So now they're all trying to start a war to make the prices even higher? a geat theory. just afew questions, if I may? First of all, is this technology you speak of patented? if not, why don't you assemble one in your garage? even if it will need many expensive parts, you'll still save in the long run. So it's patented then. who holds the patent? or rather why? there's no point in simly having one. Now Imagine you actualy have such patent, and maybe you are even related to the oil companies, to make things harder. However we know they're not doing this out of their love for oil- the're doing it for the money, and money is something you can get if you sell an oil company for it's market price. and then you introduce your eco-mobile-thing to the market, it doesn't matter if it costs pennies to build, you can still sell it for as much as you want (within reason), and you get to put your competitors out of buisiness as a bonus. that is how the world works, because the 'oil barons' are not vilains or incarnates of ultimate evil, they're buisinessmen whose primary goal is to earn money, not cause wars (allthough, offcourse, they would if it meant high profits)

So, anyway, I don't deny there might be a war for oil, but I still think that we stand a better chance as Union, then as a group of unrelated countries with no common agenda.

[omg]

the eu needs to be taking social and enviromental reforms straight to its heart. the reosen people are reacting against it, i think in part is its becuse it seems to be taking on some american ideas ie: long working hours. loads of small states. centralized beurocracy. we as the eu have a major advantage ie: our miltary budgets. we dont have the vast army that china and america has. so we have a lot of free money. some of it has been spent rejuveanating areas in england.
one problem i think with a freshly created superstate with a lesser military. we just kind of sit back in europe with our nuclear deterrent rather than building loads of surface missles? it means theres a big pot of money out there. compared to the more military countries. and corruption is always a major matter when you have an administration looking at big pots of money.

@ a1s the eco market thing is a dark slippary slope my freind. it was gearing towards silcon, but then the world silicon price went up. turbines are viable. we have a huge one
near me. and im not to far from a windfarm.
whenever someone opens a windfarm they get this small hardcore of people lobbying against it. a lot of the time these people are summer residents. i actually like them. i see it and i feel good. the worrying thing is this part time residents have had effects in some areas near me and prevented turbines. our goverment still rants on about nuke power though. about how its cheaper in the ultra-long-term which we all know is a lie. the goverment spends a lot a hell of a lot of the tax fund on subsidiesing these monsters. they never pay for themselfs.
the goverment spends a lot of money researching nuke 2. they dont spend a fraction of that on hydro eletrics an renewables.

i think with correct investment this *european pot* could help build us a far safer future. all i see though is administrators with yachts. you cant trust people with loads of money and power. and a united europe creates a very powerfull set of individuals.
viva le presidente?

[Quintopotere]

Originally posted by omg@Jun 6 2005, 11:27 PM
i hate it. they want to sell evry last drop of oil before they introduce fule cells to the masses.

I'll become an electrical engineer in few months, so i can say something about that...

Fuel cells should be the future IMHO, and they use hydrogen to make electricity causing no pollution, but nowaday hidrogen is produced largely by using oil!
So, maybe the cities could have a better air, but for the eart nothing change (perhaps it produce a bit more pollution due to the energetic loss of adding a transformation-step)
Someone is creating new processes for hidrogen production and we hope about that.
And there are so many kind of electricity generators that you can't imagine! For example, it's possible to produce electricity directly from muck!

Anyway you are right about the will of oil... and you have to now that there are much oil than how the producers say! Sometimes they say: "oil will finish within 40 years", but you can be sure that they are only kidding to rise the price...

Well i'm a litte , but EU could teach a different way in energy production to USA with our larger use of alternative-oil-energy...

[omg]

yeah you can get quite an effeciant methane source from chicken poo. hydrogen can be extracted from water. takes a bit of electricity though. if they run out of oil thats going to lose us plastics as well. maybe it should be hoarded more. i always thought the eu was meant to be about something more than buisness. maybe this split in the eu is a good thing. it sorta seems to be about this being a constitution geared towards big buisness? i dont know. i hoped to see a few more enviromental ideals.

[Quintopotere]

Originally posted by omg@Jun 7 2005, 08:46 AM
yeah you can get quite an effeciant methane source from chicken poo.

No, it's not that! I mean that it's possible have directly the electricity from muck! there are some microorganisms that live in muck ( ) and in their digestion produce iones, so you need only to put electrodes to have a voltage (like with lemons, but due to another principle)

[Puffin]

Okey. My point of view.

I don't want Iceland to join the EU.
If we'd join, we'd loose our fish. Then anyone could come and fish it, and we'd loose what means the most to us. Most of our income comes from the sea. One of the biggest class in the working-life is sailors and people who work in fish (people that work on land, cleaning the fish, selling, etc).
We even sell it to all over the world, even to Japan.
If our sea would become a common property of Europe, we'd be screwed.

About low salaries in Eastern Europe..

Have you ever tried living in Western Europe? Tried living in Iceland?
Iceland is said one of the richest countries in the world.
Last summer, my average monthly salaries were the same as an adult in Serbia gets in one year.
But everything is MUCH more expensive here. 2 litres of coke cost 3€. How much does it cost for you? How much money do you get per month? During the winter I get average 240€. It's enough for me, but could be better.
EVERYTHING is up to 10x more expensive here than in many other countries. So it's just fair and reasonable that we get higher salaries. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to live.
We live on an island, so it's not easy for us to go buy gas, milk or whatever in some other country. The cheapest way out of the country is 240€ one way. Usually much more expensive.

My dad used to work in Germany, he did all the shopping there. Even groceries. That saved us a lot of money. YET Iceland is considered one of the richest countries

Although this all doesn't have to do with the EU, i just wanted to say this. Things aren't great here either.

[Playbahnosh]

@a1s

If you are here to blow my opinions to pieces, you are doing a damn good job...

"and as long as there's no actual fighting involved..."
Dude, war IS about fighting! There is no war without bloodshed!

My example with ant farm is just an example. It is no "fun fact", but reality, and it has more things to with the discussion! Ants have the most sophisticated government and life system on earth, and it is a good example. Please think it through, and try to understand before you make hasty exclusions... That's all I ask...

You are gotta be kidding! Do you even read what you just posted? You expect me to build the water fueled car IN MY GARAGE, and knock the oil companies out of business? Are you completely out of your socks? How on earth could I do that? It requires parts that doesn't even exist now, and it'll cost thousand millons of cash to build a car like that. The only prototype is kept safe in some secret place, that the only thing I know. If you are not content with what I just worte, seek info on the internet, you can probaly find some. Think before you post, please...

I agree, oil barons are probably not incarnates of untimate evil, and they probably don't want to cause wars in the first place, but as you said their primary goal is to make money. The USA is thebiggest oil consumer on earth. And they are sneaky, and I mean the politicians.(sorry, I don't meant offense). Why do they doing war in the balkan? I tell you: oil! Why, do you think, they runned down Afganistan and Iraq? Not to fight terrorists, that's for sure... <_< They want to secure the remaining oil reserves there, to maintain the needed supply. And If the oil will
deplete(wich is closer than we think), they can sell it to other countries for astrological amounts of money. I don't blame them, this is mere business strategy. I don't say I've done this myself, but I tought of it, before this whole "terrorist war" started, and the real thing just made my theories true... Sadly... <_< The war is good for their economy too. They runned down the balkan countries becouse they are no match for the US Army, and more will come soon I fear... And all in the name of "terrorist threat". I don't want to hurt the feelings of US residents here, and if I did, I'm sorry...

[Playbahnosh]

(sorry for the double post, bu it just does't fit in one. Please don't delete it... )

@all

About chosing sides: Hungary has a hell of a history, but you probably learnt that in school. Our stupid politicians always choosed the wrong side, and thus we became the almost smallest country in europe with no economy or future. In the middle ages, Hungary was the most powerful country in central europe(um...it was the only country in central europe), we even had sea-shore!
I think you guys, from the neighbor countries will probably hate me for this and grudge me to death, but countries like Slovakia, Croatia, Romania and the likes were apparetny non-existent in that times...
They were all part of Hungary, in it's glory!
But then came the chain of destruction... First, the Ottoman Empire(Turkish) took over our country for 200 years. Then came the Habsburgs and took it over from the Ottomans, making Hungary a part of their empire.

Then after a long time, came the first world war, and(why not? <_< ) Hungary was on the loosing side. Then came the WW2 and Hungary was AGAIN on the loosing side.
They ripped apart our country, and the rest was taken over by the Russians...
Before the Trianon peace-treaty, Slovakia doesn't even existed!(sorry If I offended somebody )
The romanians lived in peace with the transylvanians, the slovaks lived in peace with the hungarian highlanders, the austrians lived in peace with the burgenlander hungarians...and so on!
But after the war, everybody wanted a piece of hungary, and sadly, they got it... The racist thoughs only started to spread AFTER all this. Now I hear romanians fighting hungarians in transylvania, croatians driving away hungarians in croatia and slovenia all becouse of the greedyness of politicians! They ripped apart a working and prosperous community in central europe, despite of the dictatorships through out history, with is not our fault... Now many people of
neighbor countries see the hungarians living there as mere parasites on THEIR country. There are organised factions, that seek the removal of hungarians, SEE THE IMAGE ATTACHED! I THINK SOME OF YOU SEEN IT ALREADY!
I don't blame any of the common people or any of the forum members becouse of this (I think of you as my friends now ), but the politicians...

I don't want to whine or moan about how the things stand, but you have to understand my part! Please think this over...

[troop18546]

I understand things have changed to you and you want it all back.

Here's my part of the story:

My country (before the middle ages) had the territory from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. The Zechpospolita was created from a pact over Lithuania and Poland. By then, it had become bigger and stronger.
Past that, the wars with other countries had made it lose most of its fairly owned land. Before WW1 Russia (asian country) had occupied all the Baltic states and more. We then became an independent country (1918). After WW1 we were again taken to the USSR. Till 1990, we were an enslaved country. 1990, we got independance again. 1991, Russian tanks surrounded Vilnius and tried to enslave us again. We stoped them.

Dont blame me for wanting some protection against things like this. Military alliance with EU give my country protection. I dont want to lose the place in the world.

P.S. There were no losing and no winning sides in WW2. There were only territoty-hungry and territory-protecting.

I dont blame any of you for making your own choises. This is my choise.