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[Tulac]

It's called the great circle of poverty...

[Playbahnosh]

Originally posted by Tulac@Jun 6 2005, 10:40 PM
It's called the great circle of poverty...

what is a poverty? :blink:
Sorry but I really don't know...

And what is your opinion about this whole thing?

[a1s]

Originally posted by troop18546@Jun 6 2005, 11:55 AM
I vote YES k: , cause it gives my country the protection against the MF+ Russia. They wanted my country and all the Baltic in their MF+ union. Well F+ it - your left out. :evil:

I have no Idea what you are taling about! apparently everyone else does though, so can someone explain this?

about the economic issues, I believe that while EU isn't a charity joint it still makes a great leveler. and when you level things out turbulence is bound to be produced. I see those problems mentioned here every day (we've got higher prices, restictions on 'not approved' (but still effective) medicine from the East, mind leaks (aren't there regulations that limit immigration from new memebers in the first few years?), as well as incerdibly wasteful safety regulations), but something has to be done. When rich live next to the poor, crime strarts, and what is a robbery interpersonaly is called war when acrures between countries. we must alloso be a united front against troubles from outside. we are no longer the center of the world- US is getting bored and picks fights all over the world, terrorists thereaten everyone, and seeng who governs Russia, I won't be surprised if one morning they'll tell me in the news that it has turned into a dectotorship.
I believe that there's no question on wheter or not we need EU, but how we should improve it (most of the stuff I hear about the buerocracy there would be funny, if they weren't so sad)

[Tulac]

Originally posted by Playbahnosh@Jun 6 2005, 10:49 PM
what is a poverty? :blink:
Sorry but I really don't know...

And what is your opinion about this whole thing?

Poverty is people being poor... I guess you could call it pooredom...
I stated my opinion about EU from my countries perspective now, a few pages back...

[Sebatianos]

The worst thing of all, there are eastern countries from here as well, and for them WE ARE THE WESTERNS! unsure.gif and this all goes in circles...

This reminds me of the Monty Pythons song:
I like Chineese, they come from a long way over seas,
they're cute, they're cudlly and they're ready to please...

I know what you're talking about Playbahnosh.
For the work I do here I'd get at least three times more if I was working in Germany. The costs, but the costs woudln't be three times higher!

But trust me, all of this will change.

If there is something I learned from analysing the situation in former Yugoslavia, it's that you can't have unity with such great economical differences.
Example:
State jobs like a border guard were payed equaly all through Yugoslavia. But a borderguard in Macedonia was among the richest people in a village he lived in, while a border guard in Slovenia was among the poorest in the village he lived in (remember both of them got an equal pay).
So if entire Europe is to have the same currency (€) then similar problems will happen.
You'll get great price difference for certain articles. Just compare the price of milk (It's cheaper for me to drive to Hungary to buy Slovene milk at your stores, then to go to a store just outside my door and buy Slovene milk). That's because prices are that much different in different EU countries (and that's because wages are so different).
Now as long as there are different currencies this isn't quite so obvious, but once we all have €s this will only worsen. Then every price should be comparable (but should you take the highest or the lowest price?). In every case some people will suffere because the price will raise or the pay will get lowered. So you'll have that case with the border guard.
For the same job people will have a completely different standard of living. This will cause migration to an even greater extend. Now add to this the competition of the underdeveloped asian/african countries that can lower prices, because people will work for small change - and what do you get?
It's either economical collapse - or bye-bye social right and privilages. This will lead to a situation similar to the one in which Marks wrote his communist manifesto. Also the extreme right wing polititions are getting stronger. All of this does remind me on the situation of the late 19th century. It doesn't look rosy.

[Playbahnosh]

@Sebatianos

Exactly!!!

There will be a disaster in the near future(say 10 years)! But no just a country wide disaster, nor just Europe wide... A world wide disaster awaits us. and this is not a doomsday prophecy! The facts talk...
Like you said Sebatianos, the milk is cheaper in Hungary. The vegetables and the pork meat is cheaper here too, then in the neighboring countries. But look at the fuel prises!! :blink: There are horribly high fuel prizes here nowdays, and ALL of the neighbor countries have cheaper. And we have quite many of them... <_<

Let me state an example for you to see what am I talking about:

Let's say, we have an ant farm, divided into four sections. Each section has different properties, like food, water, air and light supply. now...
If we leave it like this, the ants will start to accept what they have, and make use of the resources. They will probably have conflicts on their own territory, but they will ignore the other sections for the time being. Every section become a self-supporting economy with all the pros and cons of their own.
But what if we lift out the dividers?
Just like the EU, borders are disappeared...
The ants will start to realize what the other sections have. That may be better than their own section's, so they move over there instead. :blink: The rich sections will lose their wealth due to migration, the poor sections will lose their quality workforce... local problems will become not just their own, but they will stack and become global problems. OMG
In time, they will start to fight for resources and territory, and a global chaos will occur... :Titan:

This will happen here as well...

In time, this world will burst out to a revolution... or, what I most fear, world war 3! I know this sounds redicoulos...
I'm not a doomsday prophet, and I don't want to say false things. These are all based upon surveys and real documents... I'm trying to stay optimistic, but it is very hard....

This is not a joke at all. Just get down and think this over for a second! You will realize that I'm not talking nonsenses...

[omg]

the odd weather isnt helping either. climate change is an effect and it is spoiling crops, and overfishing is leading to a definate reduction in how much fish a lot of supermarkets stock. i have heard fishermen tell me that if they dont stop fishing there will be no stock left in our seas.
nothing stimulates war like food shortages, its a cascading point thing, the effects are gradual at the moment but as climate change takes hold and gradually more natural resources are plundered we are going to reach a point where there is a shortfall on the amount of food produced. europe could be forwards about this. a european state has the potential power to put money into researching this. into developing hydroponic crop facilities and clever gm to help defend against the potentiol disastor we are heading towards. otherwise its going to break down into anarchistic comunes. as the resources gradually dwindle. europe is meant to be about more than trade.
we could be the biggest lobby in the world. and there are some good social ideals buried within the red tape.

[a1s]

on the contrary, if one part of an ant farm has a limited supply of everything, it might invest in solider ants in order to brake the restrictors and then take their rivals eggs for food. it happens in nature (I think it does, I got this from discovery, and they aren't excatly famous for their true facts), if you remove the border prematurely, they will offcourse have some initial fights over the terretory, but those will be mostly 'defensive' conflicts, then they will just go around the enemy terretory and calim what they need.

World war 3 (or whatever passes for it) might accure, but it will most likely involve arabs and americans, withe europe having the same role as south america had during WWII- arbitrarily chosing sides and recieving limited help from their new allies, so If we all choose the same side, there will be no war in europe, which is allready a good thing.

[Playbahnosh]

@a1s

What are you talking about? Are you totally sensless? War is NEVER a good thing, regardless wich side we are on, or which country we live in!!

What I said in my antfarm example, is all happening in real life in the animal world... As I said, I only talk facts...

@OMG

I see your point. You are right about the developments we need. But the thing is:
We already have them!

You see, we developed hydroponic crops that can surivie even the worst condidions. We have designed a car that works with water, instead of fuel. We have all the developments on paper... stucked away in some very secret government facility.

If you read the news last years, you should know that we developed a car that uses water disintegration to use hydrogen as fuel, and only exhausts steam...
(Not the one that needs hydrogen, this one works with distilled water)

And if you know about this one, you should know that the project leader and some scientists were killed in a mysterious accident, shortly after presenting their archivement to the public. The governments smeared the whole thing away, and declared the prototype to be too expensive and closed the whole thing down. :blink:

Why did they do this? Simple:

The oil barons, and the big oil companies can't let to lose their profit by leaving water fueled cars roam the streets. The oil industry is the biggest on earth, and those filty rich people who works in it, wont let their income got through the window. Even for humanity's sake <_<
They are not concerned about he climate, or the fact that all of earth oil deposits will empty in 20 years in the current rate of extraction. Or the fact that they are leading the world towards a world war for oil. And as a cause of all this, a world war in general! OMG

As you can see, this is only one example of the thousand, that in one can lead to war. If these stack... God knows what will happen... And all this just becouse the money and personal gain! This is disgusting...

What do you say tho this?

[omg]

i hate it. they want to sell evry last drop of oil before they introduce fule cells to the masses. its hard to judge what to do. just cross our fingers? i voted for the greens in the last european election purly because they actually seemed to have there heads screwed on about what individual european seats can gain in terms of european policy change, they seemed to have there head screwed on about what they wanted to do in europe a lot more than the tories or labour. i actually watched the broadcasts. in a way it was digusting to see the men in power just ranting on meaninglessly about what they belive europe to be.