«

[MasterGrazzt]

I felt that the Guardian was an unusual "endboss", though. Most in RPGs are handchafing wizards, intent on destroying the kingdom for revenge or the like. Of course, there are some notable examples of this type of villain in games, for example Scotia in Lands of Lore, but the Guardian was a dictator. He wanted to take over Britannia because he felt it was what was best for everyone.

Also, the game's story proper, the Fellowship is not what it seems, was quite good and unique too. You could tell what was generally going to happen, but you looked forward to the unravelling of it. Ultima 6's revelation, like Mad-E-Fact said, was unprecedented. When I first played U6, I honestly thought I was going to fight King Draxinusom (I didn't know who, just that I was going to slay some sort of gargoyle king) and when what happened happened, well...

[Borodin]

Both stories were pretty good. Each deliberately pulled a switch on a standard kind of plot. U6 took the "hero of the hour," the pure, the noble, the striving young avatar, and suddenly shows how actions involved in his achievements--through no intentional fault of his--have led to the near-destruction of another, formerly hidden culture. U7 created a diabolical villain (with the voice done by one of the stars in the Texas Chain Saw Massacres) who builds an organization of genuine good, and uses his abilities of clairavoyance and clairaudence to appear as your friend early in the game. Both plots are still treated in a very basic way, but the ideas are great. For a really unique plot with a remarkable treatment, though, I'd suggest Planescape: Torment. Nothing has touched that.

[Mad-E-Fact]

But was the Guardian so much different than say Lord Blackthorn? He also believed to be doing what was right and neccesary, as the king had disappeared and the people needed guidance. I especially liked his take on the Code of virtue...

Thou shalt humble thyself to thy superiors, or thou shalt suffer their wrath...

hehehe

I'm not saying U7's storyline is bad, it is in fact still a lot better than what other games of that time had to offer - usually find a super weapon to kill the main villain or put together pieces of an ancient artefact (to kill the main villain).

You also have to take into account when the games were released. While I agree that PS:T has probably the best story of all cRPGs I know of, it came out nearly 10 years after U6. As the budgets for computer games increse, we have come to expect a rich story and well-developed dialogue, as such games are much more common nowadays, but at its time U6 really stood out among the rest, and even until today not many managed to come close.

[Borodin]

You also have to take into account when the games were released. While I agree that PS:T has probably the best story of all cRPGs I know of, it came out nearly 10 years after U6. As the budgets for computer games increse, we have come to expect a rich story and well-developed dialogue...

We have? The RPGs I've seen since PS:T feature cliched, mindless plots and superficial characters: KotoR 1 and 2, Morrowind, and Fable are good examples. Individually each possesses a strong following, and for different reasons, many of them good; but taken together, it's all more of the "Mr. Nobody who has a grand but secret destiny after he/she kills The Evil Overlord of the Universe." As for dialog, show me one RPG that comes within a comet's reach of PS:T, and I'll buy it for that, alone. Contrary to the above statement of yours, the RPG buying public has been perfectly happy with dumbed down games featuring lots of weapons, armor, battles...did I mention weapons and armor? Oh, and battles? And weapons? We get what the majority ask for, and it appears that the industry heads who said to aim for a younger audience than PS:T did were heeded.

[Mad-E-Fact]

If you want to see it from a cynic's point of view, then all RPGs are like that.

The Avatar was a random nobody from earth, who was called to Britannia to solve problems that were more often than not cause by some super evil. Planescape? Well it's a lso a random guy who lost his memory and to regain it he has to defeat some super villain in the end...

It's the story which ties these events together, the dialogue that makes you believe that you are in a real, breathing world, that in the end distinguish a bad RPG from a good one. What I was saying is, as the production value and technical possibilities of games increased, the developers now are able to create a richer gaming experience than they were a decade or two ago, where NPCs had one dialogue line at best. That's not to say all modern RPGs are good, far from it. Really good RPGs are still rare (and I count Morrowind as one among them), but the POSSIBILITIES are there now, more than they were in the times of U6.

[Borodin]

As we all know, it isn't the plot itself that determines how good the story is, but how the writer handles it. What makes the "idiot with a secret destiny" plot so annoying in RPGs is how often it's used, as though no other plot exists. And what sets Ultima VI and VII apart from others in this genre is how the basic plot elements are twisted back upon themselves: the Avatar's earlier actions cause tremendous suffering, for instance.

I would disagree about PS:T's plot, though. It's "You can't die; you keep coming back to life. And each time it happens, it seems there's an increasing chance you'll lose your personality and memories." That's pretty unusual, by any standards.

What I was saying is, as the production value and technical possibilities of games increased, the developers now are able to create a richer gaming experience than they were a decade or two ago, where NPCs had one dialogue line at best. That's not to say all modern RPGs are good, far from it. Really good RPGs are still rare (and I count Morrowind as one among them), but the POSSIBILITIES are there now, more than they were in the times of U6.

Thanks for the explanation. That, I can buy. Certainly, few tile-based RPGs spent any time on lengthy dialog, much less elaborate dialog trees that checked for skills, attributes, reputation, etc. It is much easier today to create this, but so far, few developers have taken advantage of the possibilities. I suspect that's because its sexier for game sales to focus all your development time on particle effects and 3D graphics, maybe paying extra for some Hollywood star to do a voicing or two.

[Zxby]

Originally posted by MasterGrazzt@Jan 19 2005, 02:16 AM
I felt that the Guardian was an unusual "endboss", though. Most in RPGs are handchafing wizards, intent on destroying the kingdom for revenge or the like.

Wann talk about stupid endbosses, try Ultima 3. The Exodus "machine" was a bit rediculous.

[Borodin]

Originally posted by Zxby+Jan 23 2005, 02:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zxby @ Jan 23 2005, 02:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MasterGrazzt@Jan 19 2005, 02:16 AM
I felt that the Guardian was an unusual "endboss", though. Most in RPGs are handchafing wizards, intent on destroying the kingdom for revenge or the like.

Wann talk about stupid endbosses, try Ultima 3. The Exodus "machine" was a bit rediculous. [/b][/quote]
That was a dull ending, and Exodus was easily killed. After I'd done it and I was told I'd won, and nothing else happened, I wondered if the game had frozen. No: Origin Systems really didn't see any need to add anything further. Felt pretty let down.

[Mad-E-Fact]

Originally posted by Borodin@Jan 20 2005, 03:04 PM
As we all know, it isn't the plot itself that determines how good the story is, but how the writer handles it. What makes the "idiot with a secret destiny" plot so annoying in RPGs is how often it's used, as though no other plot exists. And what sets Ultima VI and VII apart from others in this genre is how the basic plot elements are twisted back upon themselves: the Avatar's earlier actions cause tremendous suffering, for instance.

So what you are saying is, the "generic guy with secret destiny" plot itself isn't your main gripe, just how that basic plot is explained and carried out by the author of the story? If that's the case, I can only agree. Take for example Morrowind. As far as I remember the basic idea was also an unnamed prisoner who is destined to be the savior of the land, but there was such a huge amount of background lore to be found, so many mysteries to uncover, that it was very easy to forget about the main quest, and just travel around and explore the world. And that's how a good RPG should be.

:help:

Hmmm.... seems like the download didn't include the transation of runic. Can't read any of the sign posts cos I can't translate them!!