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[aagr]

Originally posted by gregor+Jul 23 2005, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gregor @ Jul 23 2005, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-aagr@Jul 23 2005, 06:50 AM
No doubt, there are good muslims and there are bad muslims.
But what do they do in Europe, I wonder (all of them)? They should be helping their own country, land of their ancestors. Europe is for Europeans, Asia is for Asians, Africa is for Africans and so on. If everyone mind his place, there would be no problems at all. Why should Europeans who were building their progressive and rich countries for several hundreds of years let immigrants in their countries?

?
same thing why are Jews in Europe? what do you propose? we reopen the concentration camps?

As for Mulsims, if you read history, you will see that parts of Europe were conquered by Arabs and Turks. since the conquered people were given a choice which religion they will choose (but they had to pay addtional tax if they choose christian) they started to like Mulsim religion and had choosen it as their own.
just like you have Budhist, or other more exotic religions in Europe. peopel choose to folow some principles it's their choce and they shouldn't be branded because of that. [/b][/quote]
During all history Europeans defended their religion - Christianity, from Muslims.
European values are based on Christianity.

Islam is not just "another" religion. If Europeans in near future will become muslims, Europe we all know will disappear.

You see, muslims in their own countries are not so liberal as you. And they will never let you build churches like for example Londoners allowed muslims to build a lot of mosques. And while you will defend their right, they will oppress you here and there. The problem of Europeans is that they always try to defend rights of other people, and in the end they totally forget about their own countrymen. Liberalism is not so good...

[gregor]

Originally posted by aagr@Jul 23 2005, 07:41 AM

During all history Europeans defended their religion - Christianity, from Muslims.
European values are based on Christianity.

Islam is not just "another" religion. If Europeans in near future will become muslims, Europe we all know will disappear.

You see, muslims in their own countries are not so liberal as you. And they will never let you build churches like for example Londoners allowed muslims to build a lot of mosques. And while you will defend their right, they will oppress you here and there.

Ok!

1. I considered Spain to be in Europe - used to be under Saracens, many mosques are from that period. Many were destroyed by people led by christian values. who continued their reign by burning books, slaughtering people....

2. I always considered Bosnians and Albanians as Europeans - basically because they are in Europe.
3. Turkey is very "liberal" as you call it and i would also suggest you to visit Indonesia. lot's of churches, Budhist and hindu Temples among Mosques. oh and guess what even the more religious mulsims have christian or hindu friends. You will notice similar things
in Malesia.

4. War between Croatia and Serbia was between european, non-muslim countries. same as WW2. remember that it all started here in Europe.

5. Terrorists like ETA, IRA and the guys from Corsica don't help to strengthen the image of Europeans as a peacefull nation. yet their beliefs are based on Christianity.

6. Another organisation that is also based on (some twisted) christian values was spawned in Europe - Mafia.

7. ever heard of crusades? Yes? well have a deeper look on them sometimes. see how christian valued eurpean volonteers came to Contantinopol, werent allowe din the city, went across the straight and attacked the fist settlement they saw. Stickign babies on sticks, burning them on fire, slaughtering women and men. except they didn't know that those settlments were christian. and even if they werent what they did was still wrong.

[aagr]

What point are you trying to make? I'm not saying Europeans and Christians are some kind of ubermensch, super intelligent and kind. We all have drawbacks.

Bosnians and Albanians betrayed their ancestors religion. Hail to Serbs because they fought against Turks and never betrayed their values.


Talking about crusades, do you want them to be repeated but against Europeans?


But never the less, Christianity is the core of European civilisation. No Christianity = no Europe. That's why we should protect it.

[PrejudiceSucks]

Absolute shite. The French and British fought for years and for a few few of those years they had the same religion. The Germans and Hungarians fought a little, they were both Catholics.

Christianity is an aspect of European life, but not the whole reason why it's here.

The Crusades were really just a way to get the violent young men of a generation to a place where they would all almost certainly die and certainly never come back. Calling it a Christian ideal is rubbish. The Hungarians didn't bother with them and they're one of the most holy countries.

Also, remember the Christian uprising in the Lebanon not so long ago? That was terrible, it led to a civil war.

The Muslims brought us most of our technology that we have today, it's really just a more intellectual version of Christianity, it's a perfectly acceptable religion, it's just that for the last 100 years we have been fighting wth them over resources and trade.

[Sebatianos]

During all history Europeans defended their religion - Christianity, from Muslims.
European values are based on Christianity.

Islam is not just "another" religion. If Europeans in near future will become muslims, Europe we all know will disappear.

You see, muslims in their own countries are not so liberal as you. And they will never let you build churches like for example Londoners allowed muslims to build a lot of mosques. And while you will defend their right, they will oppress you here and there. The problem of Europeans is that they always try to defend rights of other people, and in the end they totally forget about their own countrymen. Liberalism is not so good...

The only thing I have to tell is - stop this bull$hit and start learning real history (not some christian propaganda full of prejudice).

I'm an atheist, I'm an European. My values have nothing to do with christianity. In fact I might even say the christian religion is the one I have to fight against to keep my values, because I'm being discriminated against for not glueing my hands together and kneeling under a cross. If that's what Europe is supose to be - then bring on any other religion to root out Christianinty.
Luckily it's not like that - luckily Europe isn't a religios state some whish it to be. A few centories of Inquisition were quite enough thank you!

[efthimios]

Originally posted by PrejudiceSucks@Jul 23 2005, 08:16 AM
Absolute shite. The French and British fought for years and for a few few of those years they had the same religion. The Germans and Hungarians fought a little, they were both Catholics.

Christianity is an aspect of European life, but not the whole reason why it's here.

The Crusades were really just a way to get the violent young men of a generation to a place where they would all almost certainly die and certainly never come back. Calling it a Christian ideal is rubbish. The Hungarians didn't bother with them and they're one of the most holy countries.

Also, remember the Christian uprising in the Lebanon not so long ago? That was terrible, it led to a civil war.

The Muslims brought us most of our technology that we have today, it's really just a more intellectual version of Christianity, it's a perfectly acceptable religion, it's just that for the last 100 years we have been fighting wth them over resources and trade.

The Hungarians did not join the crusades because they were not christians yet. Same for the Danish IIRC.

[efthimios]

Originally posted by gregor+Jul 23 2005, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gregor @ Jul 23 2005, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-aagr@Jul 23 2005, 06:50 AM
No doubt, there are good muslims and there are bad muslims.
But what do they do in Europe, I wonder (all of them)? They should be helping their own country, land of their ancestors. Europe is for Europeans, Asia is for Asians, Africa is for Africans and so on. If everyone mind his place, there would be no problems at all. Why should Europeans who were building their progressive and rich countries for several hundreds of years let immigrants in their countries?

?
same thing why are Jews in Europe? what do you propose? we reopen the concentration camps?

As for Mulsims, if you read history, you will see that parts of Europe were conquered by Arabs and Turks. since the conquered people were given a choice which religion they will choose (but they had to pay addtional tax if they choose christian) they started to like Mulsim religion and had choosen it as their own.
just like you have Budhist, or other more exotic religions in Europe. peopel choose to folow some principles it's their choce and they shouldn't be branded because of that. [/b][/quote]
They only gave a choice a bit different than the christians did in the time, at least in the area of Greece that I know a bit more of.
People there did not convert so willingly as you would like to believe. For example people that were not christians were given the choice to convert or die. Many christians got that choice too. Others were pushed to convert in a more polite way. Like not getting any help from the state, constant harassing (even more than those who were not turks (in that case)) threats and intimidation.
Islam is the religion of peace as much as Christianity of love.
Not much.
There hasn't been a mass organised genocide against muslims the same way against jews. And at least any hate against muslims has some basis in logic (wrongly or not), what are you going to hate jews for? For not blowing you up?

Both islam and christianity are guilty. Even more are the people behind them of course.
Same thing that happened in Germany with the nazis is happening in the muslim world and where muslims exist for some time now. Extremists use part of the truth to push their own agenda, some of them because they have a plan to gain something of it, some of them because of ignorance. These extremists are just another fascist ideology and must be dealt with the same way a big rising of nazis would be dealt with.
I am not so much afraid of muslims and terrorism as of what will happen if this continues for few years more or if there are some large scale attacks in europe. People will turn to racism, and not that bullshit some kids might proclaim it is happening now, but the really bad version of it. These extremists are making the mistake believing that europeans are like teddy bears, if things go far worse and they start slaughtering them they will say a more "peaceful" version of european unity.
It might not be a good idea to fuel racism.
I liked one John Stewart comment. To paraphrase since I don't remember the exact words, the terrorists are pissed off with the policies of the governments (UK for this case). So they do the logical thing of attacking and killing those that reach those decisions and those that who have the power, those who have everything to gain from conflict and those that always in favour of war. The commuters in London. Because you know the guys who have the power travel in style, by bus.

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Jul 23 2005, 09:44 AM

The only thing I have to tell is - stop this bull$hit and start learning real history (not some christian propaganda full of prejudice).

Actually he's technically right, I don't know what the laws are like now, but according to the religious Islamic laws called Dhimmi a non-muslim is not allowed to build new houses of worship in a muslim country. The Dhimma (or Zimma) grants the 'infidel' rights and protects him but he must pay special taxes and he was not allowed to build a house displaying religious signs, preach or sing religious texts or songs in public, sell non-islamic religious literature. Surely you must have heard of the dhimmi-laws.

[omg]

i have heard of them. they differ from country to country. in bengal the upperclass are muslim, the farmers hindu but the hindus are allowed there religion to a point. they are allowed to sing there holy songs and they have some saddhu, but the local muslims will sometimes sacrifice cows.
it wasnt that long ago that in england at least we went through enforced monotheism. and i think that as we slowly became liberal after the translation of the bible into english so will muslim nations as the koran becomes translated. just at the moment a lot of clerics stick to the rule that it should only be read in arabic. of course they do. that way they can twist its content to an illiterate clergy. just like the catholics used to.

[aagr]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Jul 23 2005, 08:44 AM

The only thing I have to tell is - stop this bull$hit and start learning real history (not some christian propaganda full of prejudice).

I'm an atheist, I'm an European. My values have nothing to do with christianity. In fact I might even say the christian religion is the one I have to fight against to keep my values, because I'm being discriminated against for not glueing my hands together and kneeling under a cross. If that's what Europe is supose to be - then bring on any other religion to root out Christianinty.
Luckily it's not like that - luckily Europe isn't a religios state some whish it to be. A few centories of Inquisition were quite enough thank you!

I'm not Christian too, being atheist.

But that's not what I'm talking about. All culture is based on Christianity like it or not, it does not matter. Islam will destroy it if we let it in Europe.