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[Eagle of Fire]

If I'm saying that nothing is going on, then I mean it. I would never go and tell you something just to cover something else up. If it was the case I'd prefer to say nothing instead.

Kosta knows very well what is going on, to an extent we could even say that he has a direct impact on all of this. People took sides with time, and when Kosta came and recalled to everyone the direction the site was supposed to take, it didn't pleased everyone... It's just a normal thing IMHO that oppinions differ on the internet. We all come from different country and thus all have a different culture.

[Titan]

He was the one setting up the policies.. Seriously, go conspire about the 9/11-incident or the JFK-murder, but leave this forum out of it, because it ain't leading anywhere.

[omg]

did neither of you read my last post. the niles gave an explanation that explains rougthly what is going on. then the two people who have been a big part of this seb,anubis,titki thing come on to say im going on about conspiracy theroies?

jesus bloody christ. i know that a big part of sebs problem was titan and EOF . funny how these are the two people appearing on this thread to say nothing is going on.

its not a conspiracy, im not saying that it is. but the reosens seb gave for leaving suggested something was going on regarding site policy that he didnt agree with. why couldent you two react in a way more akin to how the niles responded.
(niles response being of the mature kind i expect from this forum)

and by the way titan and EOF i actually respect the way u guys work usually. but these posts of yours on this thread are a little reactionary. possibly due to the fact that it is beef with you two that has caused this recent split.

tensions are running high and you 2 have been taking a lot of flack recently. but still....

[Eagle of Fire]

...? :blink:

Why am I always the last person to get the news? Your last post, OMG, make to sense to me.

Please explain a little more because I'm even more confused. To my knowledge I never been one of Seb problems, in fact we practically never talked to eachother. Second to that, I don't have the tensions directed toward me as you are saying either.

Same goes for Anubis and Tiki, in fact. I hardly ever talked to them, what would be the problem they have with me? I only did what I had to do, so if they had a problem with me then they had a problem with Kosta and the whole site. Maybe that's what you refer to here, but then again it's no wonder what happened happened if it's the case. It was only a question of time.

[omg]

Originally posted by Eagle of Fire@Apr 24 2006, 01:16 PM
...? :blink:

Why am I always the last person to get the news? Your last post, OMG, make to sense to me.

sorry dude. i guess i made the common mistake of thinking the two comments below mine were related to me. i apoligise for that.

as for peoples problems with you.. damit. i dont have one, but i have noticed anubis and seb having a go before at the way you run your section of the forum. i think my brain just decided that it was part of the reosen. stupid brain.

*apoligies*

[Maikel]

Without pointing fingers at anyone or blaming people; Most of the flame-wars and admin/members arguments start when people just ASSUME things. When something happens and you don't know a thing about it, don't just go around and spit your assumptions, just send a PM to one of us and ask for some info. You'll get an answer, and if we feel it's important for the general public, we'll create a topic.

[Tom Henrik]

Actually, I'll spill the beans on this one. Because I am sick and tired of people always thinking there is more to the story - and I'm especially upset that Seb (and Tiki) left the way they did. :angry:

Not only did they just up and leave without notification, but they also suggested in both their farewell speeches that the rest of the team had treated them badly.

Seb left because he disagreed with me and Danny acting on a spam post.

This is why Seb left:
(I have kept the names of innocent standby-ers anonymous, and I apologize to the rest of the Moderators for doing this, as it quotes them as well. But that is the only way to show what really happened. I'm just so fed up with the recent event, and how it is always made it look like the team that created this site and has looked after it with love is turned into scapegoats when something bad happens.)

Originally posted by Sebatianos @ Apr 23+ 2006 - 03:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sebatianos @ Apr 23 @ 2006 - 03:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
http://www.abandonia.com/forum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=225277

Here Danny states Tom has told him to tell Iron Scarecrow not make another post made up of only smileys (at least that's what I can conclude from Danny's reply - because he was answering my previous post).

Reloaded has such a rule. Abandonia doesn't. That's one of the things that give Abandonia it's open feel - and simply make its forums more fun.

I'm guessing Tom (who's been much more involved with AR lately) that he has made a mistake. He has told a moderator what to do - without consulting other people.

Tom himself made this moderators space - so just such actions could be talked about - yet he did not do this - he told Danny what to do. If I haven't raised the question no one would even know.

So after this hidden forum finally started making some progres there was an action that undermined the little progress it made.

What gives?

1) Abandonia rules for posting: http://www.abandonia.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=803
According to these rules, *censored* report should have been ignored. The post broke no rules - and *censored* could have been told so, that there's no grounds for the report.
Instead Iron_Scarecrow was told not to make such posts again.

2) Admins and mods should talk about their actions. Telling people what they may/may no do in the future is a strong moderating action - so it should be discused - no mentioning of it was made in this forum.

This isn't going well at all![/b]

Originally posted by Eagle of Fire @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 05:29 PM

Why are you always trying to find something wrong on Abandonia since a little while Sebastianos?

I can't even begin to formulate something on how this could be somehow wrong in anyways. The only thing is that Danny could have sent a PM instead of saying this publicly, so the only slightly problem I could see here is execution.

What is the problem here anyways? And who cares if there is slight rules which are not the same between Abandonia and AR? After all, they are different sites.:blink:

<!--QuoteBegin-Tom Henrik @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 05:37 PM



Anyways...

Yes, I told Danny to reply to it, but also to be polite. Iron didn't get a single warn increase - and the reply is so gentle, it can't even be declared as a verbal warn.

However... if you are going to point fingers and say "Bad Tom for not using the hidden forum!!!", then please let me point to your actions as well.

Not only did you object the ruling (read: polite remark) from Danny publically, you also completely contradicted another Moderator publically - and said that it was ok for Iron to continue to do so in the future.

Two actions that should've been posted in this forum instead.


Danny contacted me on MSN and asked if he should do anything about the post. I told him to reply to it, but do it politely. Which he did.

He got a complaint from another member, and he acted on it - but he also seeked out council for his actions. When someone complains, you have to do something.

And when you disagree with the rulings of another Mod or Admin, then do something too - but not publically.[/quote]

Originally posted by Fawfulhasfury @ Apr 23+ 2006 - 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fawfulhasfury @ Apr 23 @ 2006 - 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
And I think that now you've both posted on this ridiculousness, you should both be quiet about it from now on, heed each others advice and not continue this topic...if you want to discuss this with each other (tom and seb) do so in pm...[/b]

Originally posted by Sebatianos @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 06:00 PM

Eagle:
Yes, there are some different rules, it seems that Tom has mixed them up.
I have explained this very carefully in the first post here. If you have any questions or doubts ask away - but please publically.

TOM!!!

The rules on Abandonia don't state anything against posts made up of only smileys!

I posted and contradicted Danny's decision publically - because it was a wrong decision. If I hadn't the truth would neve even come out!!! That is one of the things I dislike about doing things away fromt he public.

YES I am pointing a finger at you!

WHY???

You TOM made this forum with a specific purpose - YOU are not doing what you said everybody should be doing.

If I who were against this forum, started following the rules (although with complaints included) then YOU how made this forum should do so as well.

These are double standards. That's exactly what got the mess last weekend started - double standards. You can't live up to your own word. One of the admins even said, that's why they don't want to promise much... I can look for the exact quote.

This is also why I thought this very forum was not needed. Because I didn't feel the need to report every such thing here - yet YOU made it and said we should do exactly the thing YOU didn't do (nor Danny for that matter).

You said there was no warn for Iron - well of course not. HE DID NOTHING WORNG!!! There shouldn't have even been the PM. Because there is no rule against what he's done and the post wasn't spaming nor trolling. the report was the thing that was wrong. It's *censored* who reported it - *censored* obviously made a mistake. Probably not realising it. *censored* the one that should be told that there was nothing wrong with Iron's post, so *censored* wouldn't burden the moderators with such reports in the future.

Fawfulhasfury:
Sorry if this upsets you. I apreachiate you wanting to keep peace here, but this really isn't the thing to sort through the PMs. It's something that should at least concern the comunity, if not get it activly involved. Also as most of you might have read by now - I really dislike doing things through PMs. It's Personal Messages - and I've nothing personal to say to Tom. The last thing I had to say to him personally I did - and it was about his latest review (Barbie). This isn't personal - this is site managment - something that is either done seriously - done loosely - or left alone. Thus far we've been doing it loosely and the site ran just fine. Tom wanted to make the mods/admins a tight unit - so I'm complying to what I enterpreted were his wishes.

<!--QuoteBegin-Danny252 @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 06:04 PM

Eugh.. this is giving me a headache.. really..

How come I always end up getting people shouting and ranting?

Anyway.

I do agree that it wasn't a "permaban+nuke" class offence, it wasn't even an offence, technically. However, smiley only posts aren't exactly the best thing to have around. So just asking him to maybe put a bit of text in surely cant hurt.. can it?[/quote]

Originally posted by Eagle of Fire @ Apr 23+ 2006 - 06:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Eagle of Fire @ Apr 23 @ 2006 - 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sebastianos, I'm sick of your mindless accusations. I'm beginning to think to bring the matter to Kosta directly.[/b]

Originally posted by Sebatianos @ Apr 23+ 2006 - 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sebatianos @ Apr 23 @ 2006 - 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Well, the way he took it, it seems it didn't hurt. But to sort this thing through:
What was the actual report made?
Only Chaterbox admins can see it - so that one would probably make a difference as well. And did you (or anyone else) say to *censored* about it (if anything at all)?
*censored* report wasn't called for. The rules clearly state in which cases a report button should be pressed.
It's not an offence that *censored* reported the post, but *censored* should be told, that it was a mistake on *censored* behalf.
Every report should be checked, because the person who reports may be wrong as well. If that would have been posted here before the action was taken I would have explained my point of view about it (which if nothing else is technically correct).

So if this forum is to continue - some further rules should be applied to it - or the posts of moderators reporting their actions should be optional.

If a moderator doesn't want to post here about the actions taken (because the only reason Tom gave we should, is to protect ourselves), then the moderator won't post here.

It's not like Tom hasn't given out requests (or was it even an order) that made nosense... Remember the one stating that every non-english reviewer should also supply a review in the native language. That one caused some problems already. If that rule was to be kept then you can bet you'd have 100 less reviews of me and wouldn't see me here anymore.

EDIT
@EAGLE:
Midless acusations.

It's MINDLESS to say that somebody (in this case TOM) did the wrong thing? Where do you get that idea...[/b]

Originally posted by The Niles @ Apr 23+ 2006 - 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Niles @ Apr 23 @ 2006 - 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Abandonia currently is ruled by common sence and netiqued. Smilie only posts are spam by common account and Tom has thus acted well within his duties as admin.

A new set of rules is in the works but currently not ready to be placed online.

Sebastianos, I appreciate the zeal with which you are doing your duties on the forum but right now that zeal is counter productive. Your constant bashing of us (admins) serves no purpose but to alienate you from the from us and most of the moderators. Please keep in mind that, although we welcome your comments, you do not have final say in matters and you are not always right.[/b]

Originally posted by Tom Henrik @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 06:46 PM

I edited Danny's post, so that the complainter is kept anonymous. Keep that in mind, Danny. Don't mention them by name

Otherwise the one who complained may be attacked over PMs by the person they complained about.

Originally posted by Sebatianos @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 07:10 PM

Thank you. It is nice to know that it is appreciated - and I'll keep it in mind that you find it counter productive, so I'll restrain myself from doing my duties with a zeal.

I see no bashing. If one makes a mistakes there are two ways - either cover it up - or strighten it out. The netiquet is not posted anywhere, nor is it a generally known document. Also there are situations where things can be expressed perfectly well with a single clickable smily. This was one of such cases, so it was neither spaming, nor breaking a netiquet - it was a reply. Unlike a certain other post (one of which I reported not so long ago, that had a single flaming word repeated several times and was followed by numerous smileys).

I know perfectly well I am not always right. But could you care to explain how this is one of such cases? Because in this case I am right (again - proove otherwise). I know you're probably concerned at this point that my strong reaction would start a further quarel on the site. That is not my intention - thus I shall try to calm down. But in this specific case (because we're talking about this one at the moment) I know I'm right - and if you read everything carefully you'd have no choice but to agree (and you don't need to reply - but are most welcome to do so, if you feel like it).

Originally posted by The Niles @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 08:00 PM

Netiquete is not a document. It is a well established set of rules that governs normal conduct on the net. As a netizen you are required to know it. This set of rules is enforced on Abandonia. It says you may not, for instance, post an all caps post. That would be rude. It also says you may not post single smillie posts. It does not matter what your opinion on this matter is. We enforce netiquete and as moderator here you are required to do the same.

On a side note. Reporters of posts are ALWAYS confidential. They are not to be discussed under any circumstance, especially with outsiders. Should the report function be abused, or you feel it is, then this should be reported to an admin who will investigate the matter.

Originally posted by Sebatianos @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 08:07 PM

Netizen... A citizen of the internet? I am not one, because no such thing exists.

A well established set of rules that I (And everybody else who uses the internet) is requreid to know? Don't make me laugh! Most people don't even know the constitutions of their countries - and those are written and printed documents. This is not a document yet everybody should know it - HOW and WHY?

This post is the first time I've heard about it - and it's the last time I want to hear about it.

GOOD RIDANCE!

*This is where Sebatianos decided to pack his bags and leave, I believe.*

<!--QuoteBegin-Fawfulhasfury @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 08:10 PM

Heh, the posts in the members you know topic were removed right as I was about to report puffins last post. :P Funny. Couldn't you all discuss this on msn, its cluttering up the forum here...a forum not made for arguments...and this will be my last post in this topic...good day[/quote]

<!--QuoteBegin-The Niles @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 08:15 PM
[b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Sebatianos

I agree. As a moderator and a "Netizen", I begin to even feel insulted by all this.

If you don't know what netiquette is, then it really raise a few good questions on why you are a moderator in the first place.

Edit: Since I have a strong feeling that whatever we say you won't accept it, I searched thru the wikipedia for the definition of netiquette and netizen for your viewing and your learning pleasure.[/quote]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ @ Apr 23@ 2006 - 11:16 PM

I think it is fine that you assume people know proper "netiquette." Of course it is not something that is written down, just as most proper etiquette in the Real World isn't written down. It is aquired from common sense and experience. If you use the net, you are a "netizen." As such, it should be taken upon yourself to learn the general rules.

I have always taken it as an unspoken rule to NOT post in all caps, simply because I have a very large feeling of malice towards those annoying people who do. However, when I come across those who do, I am often polite about it the first few times because it IS possible the person doesn't know. I have found most people (if they are not idiots) will be happy to comply becaquse they realize no one will help them if they are stupid.

To be honest, I actually thought there WAS a rule against smiley only posts. I could have sworn I've seen this said multiple times by Braindead and Titan and other admins. Perhaps the only place I found had a bit of leeway on this is in the 3x Blah category, since it is basically a spam fest anyway. I completely understand the rule, as smiley only posts just clutter the board.

As far as the taking things out in public or here, I agree with Niles and Tom on this subject. Certain things NEED to be discussed away from the general public. Any CEO, manager, or leader can tell you that NOTHING kills the moral of a group and enstills unrest more than the common folk seeing their leaders argue. This is a great community, and the public does NOT need to know about every disagreement we as mods have with eachother. If a mod or admin does something you disagree with, notify them in a PM or in this forum. Contradicting eachother in the general public gives the image of us not being on the same page (even if we aren't,) and lessens the authority we have and the respect people show us.

Seb, I don't know what's gotten into you. I've followed your rants for a couple weeks now, and they almost ALWAYS turn to you getting mad at Tom. Whatever Vendetta you have for him, all I can say is get over it. It seems like ever since Anubis was banned, all you've done is constantly look for things wrong with the organization of this forum. That is fine, but stop doing it in such a negative way man. There are ways to make yourself heard and understood with out being so accusatory, and it return people will be more civil and less stubborn in their replies.

Ultimately, all decisions are made by Kosta, as we are pretty much all just guests in his house, but until he comes in and gives his word on these subjects, accusing eachother of being wrong and unjust is not going to help. We ALL have to be flexible and not stubborn towards eachother.

That's all I have to say for now, although I'm sure more will come up. I'm just sick of all this drama. Enough of it goes on at school, and I sure as heck don't want the members of this forum to become a bunch of cliquey biz-atches. Stop taking everything so seriously. This is a GAMING forum. Games are meant for FUN. So have FUN, instead of being such a pessimist.

*End of the entire topic, and then Seb made his farewell speech.*


Read whatever you want into this, but that is the reason why Seb left.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

I think TGM is right. Then next gen ppls. There coming.

I was really expecting someone to post. "Oh, I took care of them..."

[omg]

thank you for spending the time to post that tom. it makes sense now. as in now we know why this has gone down.
(not as in it makes sense that so much stress has been caused by one post with smileys .. madness)

to be fair to you guys i think it's fair for smiley only posts to be discouraged.

*head in hands* madness...

[Sean]

Another quest for the truth. People that have been here a while and involved in some of the other incidents will likely know that there is always some sort of "Truth-Seeker". Seb is the latest, as sad as it is to see such a contributer leave I don't see know why he felt the need to do so. He seems to have simply over-reacted over what started as a minor incident. Kon-Tiki, our other recently departed member also left of his own accord. However, as far as I know Seb and Raf were quite close. It's possible that they both felt a need to make a point, I'm not claiming this as truth as I do not know their reasoning behind their departures. In their shallow goodbyes they speak not of any hard evidence of the things they hint at. Perhaps, they've made their own "truth" to make themselves feel more significant. Both guys have been here for a very long time, it appears they seem to think they are unimportant in the "grand-view" of Abandonia as a whole. They are. Perhaps, this lack of importance has been taken to heart, the admins will not treat them different from everybody else when it comes to dealing with them. I feel that this whole "We're leaving,admins are the cause" to be the oppisite of what both members have done in the long-run. Both, were active and contributing members of our community. I agree, it's sad to see them gone. Even if I don't see eye to eye with them any longer. Hopefully, if they ever sort their problems out they may return. I don't see that happening anytime soon.