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[Japo]

Donk, I would also like an example. I think the actual result of the kind of policies you mention is always perpetuating the situation, even though it's opposite to the intended result.

What I love is the wiki and web2.0 approach from the Sudanese government. They don't just block sites according to their own judgement, they encourage users themselves to report sites that hurt their (wacko) sensitiveness.

[Geezer]

The internet is great at spreading information. It is just as good at spreading mis-information. The mis-information is what is dangerous. It can incite people to do things that hurt innocent people.

[Dave]

Ok, let me correct my statement: information can be dangerous, it depends on how you want to use it.
Btw Lulu you're a perfect example of what I was talking about.
Another example is the situation in Tibet, monks demonstrations are concluding in blood, the government of the country is succeeding in its aim: to obscure the facts.
Do you know that today 10 monks were killed by the army?
I didn't, Italians media didn't even talk about it.
Internet is pure information, if they are able to stop the flow of information they can commit all the atrocities they want.

[Sebatianos]

Censorship, one of my favorite topics

I'm a person who strongly believes people should have access to information, but on a level they can handle.

What does this mean?

As you know I work as a teacher. Currently I'm teaching at a high school, so I work with a population from 15-24. Our school offers programes that educate various kids, some of them came to our school only half literate and will in 2 & 1/2 years only have the elementary school completed (sort of night courses), while others will get the highest level our highschools have to offer - the matura degree.

Why am I telling this? So you can understand better the background of what I'm about to say.

In the technitian classes (4 years of high school, will become skilled technicians who will recieve the matura degree) I can have constructive debates on just about anything and the kids can understand, comprehand and give their own opinion. How come? They are fully capable of procesing verious information in their minds and act upon it, so even if they have some prejudice, once they stop to think about it, they will see that their opinion is based on half truths and lack of correct information.

On the other hand the shortened classes (2 & 1/2 years) are hardly capable of 15 minutes of concentration to listen to a subject that really interests them (and there are only two things that do interest them to talk about: sex and cars). So in such classes it is not possible to have a debate, because the only thing they do know about some far off event, land, culture (or home politics - they seem to be even less interested in that) is what prejudice they hear.

So when we had a talk about Islam, I first had to explain to them that those really are people who need to eat, drink, sleep,... who are bloody under the skin... who have schools, libraries, internet access... who have children, stores, homes...

It took me about 70 minutes (almost two lessons) just to convince them, that Muslims are normal regular people, who just simply have a different religion and names that might seem strange to these kids, because they are in another language.

It was only then that we could start talking about the prejudice they have about them and if it is apropreate or not.

Again, I am AGAINST censorship, but I know the danger of just placing some bits of information for the general public to see and rely on their common sense to correctly understand.

EXAMPLE: When they saw the pictures of starved children in Africa they were convinced it was a report on bad parents who neglect their children and they couldn't understand that there really is a lack of food. Some even said that Black people can't live outside the desert, because it's too cold for them, so no wonder they die of starvation, because there's no food in the desert. -So just showing those pictures was not nearly enough, because they could not understand the information being presented to them.

In such cases information can be dangerous, it would be better for them not to know about some things, then to get a completely distorted opinion, because they can't understand what they see.

[Geezer]

The internet has given us new challenges in deciding what level of freedom of information is good. I can immediately think of 3 very bad instances of the flow of data and information being bad.
1. Coordination of terrorist activities
2. Slander and Libel
3. Child pornography
There are more.

So what do you do? I have read slanderous blogs that should not have been allowed but how do you stop an anonymous blogger? It's much easier to prosecute slander and libel in the printed and broadcast media. In some cases, the U.S. is taking the approach of monitoring who accesses the sites and taking action against them when warranted. This is opposed to blocking the sites altogether. Many are screaming that our freedoms are being infringed by being monitored but I would rather have that than to have the government start blocking the access. Tough dilemna.

[Japo]

Well Sebastianos, of course kids are not adults. Still I can't agree with you. The kids already take your point of view as the truth, at least you must be able to explain them the facts instead of hiding some of them because it's easier not to consider them. And the key point here is that you can't be against censorship but at the same time in favour of "benevolent" control of information. There's no good or bad control of information, either there's censorship or there isn't; every system of censorship is based on an ideology that argues that the censoring is done for some "common good", every one of them that ever existed.

I can't grasp the logic in your example either, it seems as if you were saying that kids are better off being artificially kept ignorant of famines in Africa (to the extent of banning the broadcasting of related news?) because otherwise the teacher would have to explain them what a food shortage is. So what? Kids will come up with stupid explanations about why the child in the image is starving, of course, they're kids and know nothing about the world, that's why they're at school.

[Eagle of Fire]

I'm sorry to say Sebastianos, but you sound like you are giving classes to people who have learning trouble or are retarded... We have those around here too, and they have special "adaptation" classes to try to "fit in". They are usually all troublemakers who end up with a low pay job when they grow up...

Just to make sure: how old exactly are they?

[Sal]

Sabastianos...Your point was well taken..As a teacher you are in a unique position to say the things you do. I had a laugh at the comment that young people(teenagers?) are only interested in sex and cars. If anyone doubts that take a look in the chat room and see what a bunch of 14-16 year old males talk about I believe a lot of kids have their own form of censorship. By this I mean they live in their own world and HAVE NO INTEREST AT ALL in whats happening in Africa or how Muslims might be real people or anything else that doesn't involve food,the opposite sex,computers,the latest fashion, and anything to do with sex. I work in the Justice system(Law Courts) and I see damaged,illiterate,forgotten,abused,and used kids every day...I would like to say to Eagle of Fire that many of these kids DO make it. But only after someone has taken the trouble get to know them.Some of them have even gone on to higher education(University) Not all end up as the dregs of society in low paid jobs.....SAL

[Lulu_Jane]

JMB, I would counter by saying that those three things existed long before the internet, they have always been there for those that seek them out. I do not believe for one second that a person sits down on a computer and logs onto an undercover child porn site by accident.

However, it does work both ways. Because of the "open" nature of the internet and the free flow of information it is also easier to catch the people who do such horrible things. This man was caught precisely because of the ease in which information is available today.


Misinformation is nothing new either. It's been around since the dawn of time, gossip or the tabloid press for example. Imagine how garbled news used to be in the middle ages when it would filter across countries in what was essentially a massive game of Chinese Whispers This is why I believe that every person should have the right to decide about what they see personally. A stupid person will make stupid decisions regardless of the quality of information they receive.

(Just by the way, I'm not using the word "stupid" as a synonym for "uneducated" in this context )

[Eagle of Fire]

I would like to say to Eagle of Fire that many of these kids DO make it. But only after someone has taken the trouble get to know them.Some of them have even gone on to higher education(University) Not all end up as the dregs of society in low paid jobs...

I know... That's why I said "usually".
[quote]

By this I mean they live in their own world and HAVE NO INTEREST AT ALL in whats happening in Africa or how Muslims might be real people

Well, I'm an educated person and I can frankly say that I could not care less. You get so smashed by publicity and stupid TV ads about those that you just don't care after a while. This however doesn't mean that we should not consider them human just as you and me. To hear that some people consider muslim as something else than humans like themselve is something I find extremely troubling. It's like someone who try to explain to you what is a triangle by drawing a circle...