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Old 10-12-2010, 07:02 AM   #11
TotalAnarchy
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Well I'm posting here mainly to reject the idea that WikiLeaks is supported everywhere in the world. As far as I've seen it's only highly supported by the usual freedom and liberty armada, mostly concentrated in Europe.

First there is the illusion that WikiLeaks will help normal people to keep their governments in line. Wrong. They will even try to restrict access to the info you currently have without problems. Plus what are you people doing regarding the secrets? Absolutely nothing, except trolling internet forums with it. The best you could do is hack credit card sites defending your precious site, which is called internet terrorism, by the way. I mean, most of the people who are pro-wikileaks (or anti-wikileaks, it goes both ways) didn't even read the documents they published there, and informed themselves from the news. Some say that the fact the leaks got the news headlines is enough to make their government think things over. Ok, maybe. But lets take the US cables as an example. Leaving aside that those documents are just opinions of embassy workers, what is US supposed to do about it? Stop spying countries? One of the first things my history teacher taught me in school was that embassies are the first espionage nests. That is their main role, NOT establishing longlasting diplomatic ties.

So it's clear that the country most affected by WikiLeaks is USA; diplomatically, the other countries gained an upper hand in their relations with USA. And that's why it would seem that Americans are the main people who do not support WikiLeaks. Because they realized that their country has become the main target. Frankly many times in history there were events when a large mass of people from countries supported a movement from another country, but when this movement affected their own lands, they grabbed their forks, swords or whatever they could and opposed it even with the price of their life. Most of you guys support WikiLeaks because it hasn't yet affected you, because you think you're safe, because you're in control, when a leak regarding your country will appear, yes you could say to your government what they should do and they will blindly follow you... be serious people. The English students are protesting the fourth time in 1-2 months against the augmentation of the university fees. Nothing has changed, probably the governement will do some lame concession, the students will be satisfied - it's still called manipulation. Or maybe the government will cancel the law, but the problem won't be solved. So either way everyone loses.

Secondly, I just heard russ and Darth considering bringing terrorism into discussion another Godwin's law. I'm suprised they haven't noticed an even more eyecatching example that was brought earlier into discussion - freedom and the right to information. This is the real Godwin's law that every wikileak supporter is constantly bringing up. Lately it is done purely automatic, and the countries that are renowned for freedom and transparence (Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden etc) have the most indifferent inhabitants of the entire Europe.

Probably I should stop now, cause this debate is pretty useless. Nobody will change their view on things and probably both sides are right in their own way, although neither has a grasp on the consequences that their attitude can have to later developments.
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:59 AM   #12
Aramazon
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I tried reading some of the leaks, but gosh are they ever dry...nothing exciting at all, just letters between diplomats. Some guy preparing to visit Germany got a nice long boring memo about the state of the country and whom he should say what to.

There was another memo from some intelligence guy who had interviewed everyday people for their opinions on political happenings in Armenia or something.

Great...the U.S. does pays people to gather pointless information...I'm sure there are some neat things in there, but most of it is just boring prattle.

I gotta say though, instead of throwing the guy in jail the U.S. should be trying to get in his good graces...plus it's not his fault, I'd be going after whoever did the actual leaking.

As for actual freedom of speech, I'd say this isn't even a big deal, it's just the cup spilling over...people are seeing so much crap flying in the face of freedom and democracy.

My dad grew up in communist Hungary, and more and more often he says things are getting just as bad for freedom of speech in the capitalist world as they were in the communist.

People with opposing views to the majority or those in power often get in trouble. I've seen a lot of cases over the past 3 or 4 years...from priests being told they can no longer preach, to journalists looking for answers being forcibly removed by police, to angry protesters preventing speakers or presentations AND getting away with it, to things being horribly skewed by the media to favor a certain political leaning, to just simple humiliation by teachers or professors in front of your peers.

So as I see this going on and then the government starts arresting people saying things they don't want said, I start to get worried...there's a poem actually.... goes something like, "they came for the jews and I didn't speak up because I was not a jew, then they came for the...<goes on about different groups and how I did not speak up because I wasn't part of their group> and then they came for me...and there was no one left to speak up."

anyways, I sometimes worry that pretty soon it's going to be my freedoms that are going to be taken away.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:50 PM   #13
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If bringing up 9/11 offends anyone's senses, I guess I could just have easily used London or Madrid (or many more) as examples. You really think this is just about the USA? Are you kidding? Western Europe is in more imminent danger than is the US.

What angers me is that idealistic idiots like Assange try to hide behind their freedom of information platforms and release sensitive information (whether that information was obtained legally or not) without regard to the dangers it may create. They somehow think they are doing some greater justice by exposing government communications and classified information across the world so that we, the unsuspecting public, can raise our collective voices in a cry of outrage. Give me a break! Do you really think we the public are stupid enough to not realize that this kind of stuff is happening without the need to know the details. We have State Departments chosen by elected officials whom we entrust with handling these kinds of affairs, knowing all the while that there is a need to keep much of the gathered intelligence a secret so as to not endanger the safety of the public.

The world has become a dangerous place. There is a large and well funded worldwide radical movement to destroy the freedoms and lifestyles that western civilization has paid a heavy price to create and defend. If defending that means that we have to put up with some international mud slinging and covert international espionage, i am ok with it.

If people like Assange think they are performing some greater service to mankind they are kidding themselves. They are really simply trying to bring attention to themselves.

Some of you need to stop being so naive.
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:04 PM   #14
Lulu_Jane
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It's almost as if people can have different opinions on things
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:28 PM   #15
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Never Lulu.
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:35 PM   #16
Geezer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu_Jane View Post
It's almost as if people can have different opinions on things
True. I have said my piece.

Back to the games at hand.
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:44 PM   #17
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@Geezer: dude you seriously devided by zero with your posts here - there's not much I can or want to say to you just rethink and question FOX news from time to time... ah yes and

@Lulu_Jane: that's a problem when it's about the truth because there is just one
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:30 PM   #18
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Nice try. I haven't watched FOX news in years.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
The world has become a dangerous place.
It has always been. Only someone very naive would believe otherwise.
There were the Pharaohs, there was Genghis Khan and there are various parties today. What has changed in all the time? Only the methods about the pursuit of influence, which are covered today with more subtlety than earlier. Other than that we're still in the Stone Age of humanity, and the "freedom of speech" is only tolerated as long as it doesn't disturb too much. It's all about a conflict between two main sides while trying to maintain the appearance of "today's civilized world" - one side wants everyone to say only as much as it wants them to say, the other side wants to be able to say as much as it wants to. The question is just which side one does belong to.
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:52 AM   #20
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Scatty, I don't necessarily agree but I respect your opinion. I should have said more dangerous because only in the last few decades has the potential for mass destruction been this great. Even during the cold war you had the feeling that the general sensibilities of those involved would keep any deliberate mass destruction from taking place. Can't say as I feel that way any longer. I am ashamed at the role that the U.S. has had in that. But, it is a global problem.

It is interesting the different perspectives of this problem that are taken by people from different parts of the world. Everyone has their own values and ideologies that are shaped largely by their experiences in life. The people from my part of the world (Midwest U.S.), in large part, agree with my take on things and it is not because we are some kind of red neck ultra-conservative right wingers. It has a lot to do with the fact that we have seen many of our privacies and freedoms being compromised by the need to monitor people walking the same streets that we do. We now have to be x rayed and patted down to get on an airplane. People grow more and more suspicious of their neighbors who might happen to have a different faith or nationality. We have to have thorough background checks to rent an apartment or get a job. Never used to be this way.

Most of us resent that this has had to happen but also know that it has been made an inevitability by the acts of terrorism and the need for safety. We are angry at our own government for being so careless as to let this happen (the leak of sensitive information). Aside from that, what has set us off about this whole Assange/wikileaks thing is that what we now have to tolerate is being compromised by a group that thinks they need to be the caretakers of some sensitive checks and balances of the private citizens against the evil and corrupt goings on in our government. We already have that balance taken care of here. It is called a democratic election. People like Assange just can't seem to accept that the views they have are not held by the majority of the people. If they were, national security would not exist. That is probably why they call themselves "reporters without borders". They can't seem to come to grips with the restrictions that any civilized society would place on them. They sound like anarchists to me. Needless to say that is not an ideal that I subscribe to.

Peace.
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