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[Dino]

Originally Posted by Simoneer

In case you missed it, EoF said: ''In Diablo II, there is no role playing elements whatsoever.''

Our EoF tends to be radical from time to time, you know?

[Eagle of Fire]

Yeah, well I exagerated slightly. Big deal.

The point I was trying to bring in, because yes there is quite a long reasoning behind all this, is that the tiny RPG-like elements in Diablo and Diablo II are insignificant in comparison to other elements. Sure, let's call Diablo II an Action/RPG/Adventure/Puzzle/Strategy/Simulation/Arcade game then. It does have some elements of each genre, isn't? (And I won't take no as an answer... )

Why is the game Dune branded as an Adventure game? The whole game consist of a Strategic view of the world in which you issue commands. But because the whole game resolve around the story taken from the books, its Adventure elements were deamed greater than the Strategic elements which were added simply to help further the main goal, which is to tell the story.

So why would Diablo II be an RPG title? No sense in this reasoning.

Whenever someone ask me what genre Diablo is, I always answer straightforward Action. And if they ask what kind of action game it is, I answer Hack & Slash.

Because it's the truth.

[Pex]

Ah, a good old 'Is Diablo an RPG?' argument I participated in a few of those and in the end settled down to call it 'Action RPG'.

Why? Well, it has more RPG elements than any other typical action game and at the same time has too much action to be a clasic RPG.

So, you can end your argument now and just agree with me

[Szilvio]

It is a bit silly if we want to strictly classify games, RPG, advanture, whatever. Most of the good games has mixture of all classes. Eg: Good flight simulation game has mixture of simulation, RPG, and advanture.
I know, that producers had to classify them, but do we need it?

[The Fifth Horseman]

Frankly, what defines RPG genre for me is the freedom of choice and being able to affect the plot.

If Diablo was an RPG, you would be able to:
* Join the forces of evil and lead them against the world of men
* Do different things with items than required to complete the quests - and possibly that may prevent you from completing them. Like reading the "Fungal Tome" or eating the black mushrooms.
* Find a different way of lifting King Leoric's curse
* Wear a goatman skin and bullshit the goat-things (you know what I'm talking about) into believing you're one of them
* Refuse to help someone. Or demand compensation in return for your help. Or refuse to be compensated for it.
* Slaughter all of Tristram on a whim. Just because you feel like it.
* Find a love interest in Gillian. Or perhaps in Adria.
* Instead of solving the problem of the poisoned well by killing demons, solve it by collapsing the cave they're in.

And so on. The only quest in Diablo where you have any choice is the one with the tavern sign, where you can either bring it to Ogden and get a magic trinket or bring it to a pack of demons and be attacked by them in return. Where, I ask, is the option to cleave the pack's leader through the skull and proclaim yourself the boss?

Now, let's take Fallout.
You talk to Killian and take the job of bringing proof against Gizmo.
You can talk to Gizmo and take the job of assassinating Killian.
If you feel like it, you can also just kill them both.

You can refuse to save Tandi from the Raiders.
Or you can demand compensation for it.

You can defeat the Radscorpions by killing them all.
Or you can do it just by collapsing the entrance to their caves.

You can leave the Ghouls to die with no water supply.
Or you can help them repair their water pump.

And on the list goes.
CRPG is not the same as regular role-playing, of course, where your choices are literally unlimited. But the ability to choose and the fact you will have to deal with the outcome of your actions sooner or later matters a real damn lot.

Let's take a look at Arcanum now.

King Praetor, the King Of Dernholm asks you to retrieve the taxes from the Mayor Of Blackroot. Talking with Dante (a rather bitter priest in the Sour Barnacle), he will offer to assist you. You don’t actually need him to solve any of the quests.

Talking with the Mayor, he has decided for Blackroot to align with Tarant. You can convince him to rejoin Cumbria by :

# Showing him the newspaper article found in Dernholm and telling him of the dangers of being in the middle of the conflict.
# Pick pocketing the taxes and then telling him you have got them. By doing this you show him that the guards are incapable of protecting him and he decides to rejoin.
# Retrieving his ceremonial dagger from the thieves (these can be found west of the train station across the river). He will rejoin if you return the dagger to him. To do this you can

# Kill them all and take the dagger
# Steal the dagger from them
# Buy the dagger for 300 gold (depending on your skills this can be negotiated down to 150 gold)
# Procure some Poison from Grunwalde (telling him you are going to use it on some orcs). This costs 100 gold.
# Steal item from the Hedgewizard for them (this is a small shack in the southern outskirts of town). You can either steal the small statuette from the locked chest using thief skills or make a deal with the Hedgewizard to double-cross the thieves (he gives you a scroll of create undead to do so).

Returning to Dernholm, you can accept your reward. If you have Dante in your party, you can give him the credit for returning the taxes and he will then rejoin the king.

This is role-playing.

If it was Diablo,

King Praetor, the King Of Dernholm asks you to retrieve the taxes from the Mayor Of Blackroot.
Talking with the Mayor, he has decided for Blackroot to align with Tarant. You can convince him to rejoin Cumbria by :
# Retrieving his ceremonial dagger from the thieves (these can be found west of the train station across the river). He will rejoin if you return the dagger to him. To do this you can
# Kill them all and take the dagger

[Pex]

I agree with that. I'm not saying that Diablo is a classic RPG, only that it has some RPG elements, that most of of action games don't, for which reason I decided to agree with calling it 'action RPG'. It's definitely more than hack&slash action game.

If anyone asked me to recommend a RPG for him, I would never go with Diablo. But if somene asked 'Do you know a RPG that doesn't have a really complicated level advance system or character creation and lots of action in it?' then Diablo would be my first choice.

[Simoneer]

In response to The Fifth Horseman: Yeah, you just described what YOU personally want in an RPG. That doesn't make Diablo less of an RPG, though. We all have things we personally want in any game. Personal freakin' preference. It doesn't... uh... ''factually'' affect anything.

I, for one, want to be able to make builds rather than having any attribute points distributed automatically. And yes, I want some freedom and choices (that covers a big area; Anything from being able to take different directions in the story itself to deciding if you want to kill someone or not).

I won't say Final Fantasy isn't an RPG because it lacks manual attribute point distribution, freedom, and choices, however. It's still an RPG. Or, by the modern definition: A JRPG. Still an RPG, though. And it has its depth, especially in the battles.



But that's just my view on things. Still, fact remains, your personal view on something doesn't make everyone else's view on them incorrect. Same goes for me, I suppose.

...I think I just led this arguement into a dead end.

Yeah. So let's end it.

[Eagle of Fire]

You've just lead the argument to your dead end by saying that Diablo is an RPG. Fifth quite expertedly demonstrated the contrary.

Diablo might be a game with small RPG elements in them, but like I brought in the debate, having some small amount of elements of another genre doesn't automatically turn the game into that genre.

I think the biggest obstacle in making people realize that Diablo is not an RPG is the fact that so many people think that Diablo started a new genre of game. It wasn't the case at all. All the Rogue-like games made in the past were exactly the same thing, and done so long before...

But the main "argument" against that is more often than not: but dude! Rogue-like don't have graphics in them!

So what?

[Simoneer]

Just because they're (seemingly) retarded, not all are. That is all I can say. The rest, I've said already. You hardly brought anything new into the subject.

Originally Posted by Eagle of Fire

I think the biggest obstacle in making people realize that Diablo is not an RPG is the fact that so many people think that Diablo started a new genre of game. It wasn't the case at all. All the Rogue-like games made in the past were exactly the same thing, and done so long before...

What? First *like everyone* are claiming it to be an RPG, and now... most say it's a new genre... of game? Eh? You just turned the whole arguement into an arguement about something completely different. Now people are not calling it an RPG, which this whole arguement has been about, but rather into something about how it started a then-new genre even though it didn't... Okay, wasn't the ''Diablo is not an RPG'' good enough? Or did the whole thing just vanish? Somehow?

I am downright confused right now. I probably read some stuff wrong.

Sorry if coming off offensive, btw. Did not intend to.

[Eagle of Fire]

It is not because you are smart enough to understand how ridiculous it is that most people who don't know better do...

Some people just believe anything which is written somewhere without an afterthought :tongue: