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[Classic Pig]

As puffin has given an account of a wonderful country I would like to write a little about mine and make an opportunity for you to write about yours.

South Africa has gone through years and years of people claiming it to be their own. We will skip the Dutch and British colonization and the arrival of the African tribes from central Africa. Interesting note - The first colony in South Africa was not Dutch or British but Portugese. There was a ship going to India which ran aground in about 1511. They got to shore and stayed for a few months. During their time here they built two small ships and sailed back to Portugal. One made it back.

Our recent history however is amazing.

From being a country with strongly divided race hatred things are slowly changing as the nation becomes one. We have a HUGE crime problem which does not seem to be getting any better (despite official stats to the different :ranting: ). We also have about the biggest AIDS infection rate in the world and the largest number of people with HIV/AIDS.
This having been said it is a country which thrives on hope that things will get better (which they will in time).

Stats - Population (official statistics 2001 census) 44.8 million people - over 50% who live in the smallest province Gauteng (my province.) Total land area
1,221,040 sq km (471,443 sq miles) (thanks to worldatlas.com)

Sports - We excell in Cricket and Rugby but soccer has the biggest following.
We have a large variety of plant kingdoms and one of them is unique to our country - the Cape Fynbos. USELESS FACTOID ALERT!! The fynbos plant kingdom is the smallest (geographically) on the planet but has such a large variety of plants that it makes up 20% of all the plant varieties on the planet.

Our weather here is great - winter is a little cold in most places but hardly really cold by international standards. We don't have earthquakes, volcanoes, tornados or many natural disasters.

The current rand dollar(US) exchange is 5.775 rand to the dollar and 11.18 to the British Pound.

[Rogue]

k: Interesting stuff k:

How's Nelson? (Isn't he most known South African?)

I sow on TV a documentary about criminal in SA. Some shop owners pays special body guards who can even kill criminals. :blink:

Not so nice place to grow, especially with that amount of HIV/AIDS infected people. :blink:

[Stroggy]

To say that its infested with aids would be generalizing.

Indeed it can be a bit dangerous there... but I have a lot of friends from South Africa. Most of them lived in Johannesburg.

I myself won't write much about my own country since Belgium's history is rather dull.
Founded as a kind of Bufferzone against france after which it (the bourgeoisie) revolted against the netherlands (using weapons the dutch gave to the bourgeoisie to protect their factories from angry workers) And eventually founded a constitutional monarchie.

A few monarchs later its still here. Only now there is a rising outcry of extreme-right calling for the abolishment of the royal family and splitting Belgium in two (dutch speaking north and french speaking south). A week or so ago the crownprince even made a highly controversial political statement against the extreme right party (which recently had to change its name from Vlaams Blok to Vlaams Belang on charges of rascism but its nevertheless the biggest party in the north of belgium and the actual winner of the previous elections)

And thats how things are now.

I'll refrain from telling the more interesting story of Israel's founding, but I don't want to make you-know-who upset and get this topic all OT

[Sebatianos]

Stroggy, I think you should write about Israel...
Anyway - I'll give you some details of Slovenia next:
It's a country that has a short coast line, has Alps, and streaches out to the Panonia plains all on 20.000 square kilometers.
It has just under 2 million people (56% christian - 35% atheist).
It gained it's independency in 1991.
The brief history:
At the begining of the 7th century Slavic tribes moved into this area (curently there is some dispute weather Slovenes are a part of south (Croatians, Serbs,...) or west (Polish, Slovak,...) Slavic tribes. They formed a state KARANTANIA that had an elected monarch as a soverign (KNEZ), who got his power from the nobility (KOSEZI) for a five year long turn. After five years he was eithere re-elected or some other noble took his place). But due to the misfortunate aliances they had to recognise the sovregnity of the Frank empire (Charles the Great) as a part of the Bavarian feudal theritory. Thus German nobility got the position of th KNEZ and the loss of independency was here.
Then the theretory was devided into feudal land marks that were in the hands of Italian and German sovregns (under the holy roman empire of the german nation or the Venice republic).
Under the ocupation of Napoleon Bonaparte halfo of Slovene teritories were united with some neighbouring theritories to form Illiric provinces (early 19th century). As the resoult of thet the voices were raised to unite Slovenia (the first name, the flag and a sort of an national anthem as well as the first decleratin for unification came in 1848).
After that it was a political struggle to keep the language and a struggle to build up a national economy (under the Austrian - latter AustroUngarian - regime).
At the end of the WW1 Slovenia joined with Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Serbia (that were under the Habsburg monarchy) into an independant state, but was never formaly recognised, so they joined with the kingdom of Serbia (that united with the kingdom of Montenegro) into a kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes - under the kings dictatorship named Yugoslavia.
On the 6th of April 1941 they were attacked by the German forces and surrendered within 6 days. During the time of ocupation there was also a civil war and the communist party emerged vistorious. On the 29th of November 1943 they made a constitution proclaiming the new Yugoslavia to be a republic - it later became a socialistic republic.
The communist movemant was so strong that their partisan army was recognised as a part of the allied armies (the 4th strongest) so they gaind a status of a state that has liberated itself (was very importaint because no foregin armies had bases here). This fact alowed Josip Broz Tito (the leader of the communist party) to develop his own model of state - and not to be a pupet of Stalin. Thus the regime in Yugoslavia was less extreme.
There were many ethnical differences and also different regions were unequaly developed, but the main problem was that all decisions to improve the way of life were made at an unpractical political level, so after the death of Tito the country was deep in depth and had no was out of the crisis (nor a strong enough persona to hold it all together).
So in 1991 Slovenia proclaimed its independance.

Slovenia is curiosly enough a country that holds some weird records:
Na Golici is the most played song in Europe after the WW2,
Martin Strel is the man who swam the rivers of Danube, Mississipy and Yongce (the world recor in ultra marathon swimming),
Our radio station Radio Center has the record of a DJ who aired for 4 days without sleep,
Our schools have the record of most people ever dancing the "cetvorka" simoltaniasly (all school kids of senior classes danced it at the same time on the streets of different cities),
The world ski jump record was set in Slovenia (Planica),
The ski course for the "Golden Fox" ladies slalom and Giant Slalom is the oldest regular event in the ladies world cup skiing competition,
The oldest grape-wine in the world is in Maribor (the second largest city in Slovenia),
The oldest olimpic gold medalist was a Slovenian (Leon Stukelj - died at the age of 101)...

There are many other things I could tell you, but don't wanna brag too much...

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 4 2004, 03:47 PM
Stroggy, I think you should write about Israel...

Wish I could, but some people get pissed when i just drop the name 'israel'

nice brief history youw rote there, Sebatianos

[Rogue]

Sebatianos,

Great job, only you forgot to mention that in Slovenia was one of biggest massacre made by JNA (Yugoslav peoples army) at the end of WW2 and that Slovenia was most industrialized ex. YU republic.

When I got more time, I'll write Bosnian history.

As far as Israel goes, it would be nice to see how much correct it would be. Last time we talked about it, we could not agree on some basic things.

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Anubis@Dec 4 2004, 08:42 PM

it would be nice to see how much correct it would be. Last time we talked about it, we could not agree on some basic things.

it would be nice to see how much correct it would be

And I take it you of all people will be the judge of that?

Last time we talked about it, we could not agree on some basic things.

Like the existance of resolution 181

i'm sorry but I would be as big a fool as you if I'd discuss it again.
You may think I'm frightened of listening to another viewpoint... In which case I point you to this topic on another forum: Debate

A debate mainly between me (strogannov) and another person (sic transit gloria, student political sciences) when Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was killed. 6 pages of intelligent non-hostile debate between me and somebody with a different political viewpoint.

The difference between him and you: he had a clue what he was talking about.

Sorry, but I won't be fooled again. If anybody is serious about the hearing the history of Israel they can PM me.

[Rogue]

Stroggy,

there is no point of talk about country that's made in blood of one nation. You guys are hated in region, and NO WITHOUT A GOOD REASON.

Here is small example of hell you are supporting:

Many words are taboo when used to describe Israel’s actions against Palestinians. One word in specific, genocide, sparks emotions that echo across Israel, Europe and America. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines genocide as “the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.” What is happening in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip today is dangerously encroaching on genocide, close enough so that the pictures of Palestinians in Rafah loading their meager belongings on carts and evacuating their homes are too reminiscent of another time, another place and another people. These very same images should be setting off alarms in the hearts and minds of Israelis. Unfortunately, at stake is not the lexicon of conflict but rather, our children, and we refuse to sit still to watch a deaf, dumb and blind world steal their future from them.

A few weeks ago, Israeli Professor and Political Sociologist at Ben Gurion University Lev Grinberg wrote an article that created an uproar in Israel titled, Symbolic Genocide (1). In it Professor Grinberg wrote, “Unable to recover from the Holocaust trauma and the insecurity it caused, the Jewish people, the ultimate victim of genocide, is currently inflicting a symbolic genocide upon the Palestinian people...What is symbolic genocide? Every people has its symbols, national leaders and political institutions, a home land, past and future generations, and hopes. All these symbolically represent a people. Israel is systematically damaging, destroying and eradicating all of these, with unbelievable bureaucratic jargon.”

During the last few years and weeks, in specific, the situation can no longer be accurately defined as “symbolic.” In the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Palestinian cities and refugee camps are being battered beyond recognition. This is the same fate that today’s very same Israeli leaders already forced on Palestinians in Lebanon over 20 years ago and on Palestinians inside Israel proper over 56 years ago. The Israeli targets have been many, most recently, as we write, Rafah City and the Rafah refugee camp in the Southern tip of the Gaza Strip. This isolated poverty-stricken community is facing the same brute force of the Israeli military occupation that the Jenin refugee camp, in the North of the West Bank, faced less than two years ago, if not worse. The Palestinian death toll has been mounting so steadily that the media does not even bother anymore to mention the five to six Palestinian deaths that occur almost daily from Israeli firepower.

Article is 6 months old, you can read whole article here.


A Palestinian family sits on the rubble of their demolished house after Israeli troops pulled out of the Tell al-Sultan neighborhood at the Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip, May 24,2004. REUTERS/Suhaib Salem


We have nothing to talk about. At least not till you get some culture, and learn how to discuss. :not_ok:

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Anubis@Dec 4 2004, 09:12 PM

We have nothing to talk about. At least not till you get some culture, and learn how to discuss.* :not_ok:

click and read it this time
I think you are the one who can't debate.

I refrain from discussing this with you since there is no way to engage in a civilized conversation with you. Any debate would lead to you twisting my words or not even listening.
Eventually a debased argument would ensue, thefore I politely refrain from discussing the subject.

yet you keep pushing the subject. You skipped the entire message I wrote including the link I gave and went on to go way off topic to some article.

If you continue to go off topic I shall request an administator to delete the off topic post.
In fact it would be better if the entire last few messages would be deleted so this thread can continue to proceed on topic, do I make myself clear?

[Kon-Tiki]

Originally posted by Stroggy@Dec 4 2004, 10:33 AM
(...)
I myself won't write much about my own country since Belgium's history is rather dull.
(...)

Actually, that buffer region's only one of the latest parts of its history. Before that, it wasn't officially a country, but was called Belgica by the Romans, the South-Netherlands throughout other parts of the history. Been occupied by the French tons of times, been other people's battlegrounds, were once the centrum of trade, with the haven of Antwerp until it shifted with the discovery of America, been occupied by the Spanish, which made all intellectuals and artists flee to Holland and Germany... its history's far from dull, but if you concider its history to start the moment it's been given borders and a governement, you're neglecting the centuries and centuries from before that. You'd act as if the landmass was risen up only 174 years ago, and before that, it was just sea (and even then, with its position, that sea'd definitely have some history then)