«

[Tulac]

http://realclearpolitics.com/Comment...0_4_05_CM.html

I say it's better to nationalize some companies than letting the bloodsucking IMF, make a huge national debt, and privatize public companies creating monopolies of foreign capital...

Chavez was elected democratically, and let's not forget that USA backed up, a few military overthrows that were allready tried, I think he's much better than Pinochet style dictatorship...

[Havell]

That site isn't what I'd call impartial. Real Clear Politics my arse.

As for the Venezuelian situation, it was clear that land reform was necessary, it remains to be seen what will happen next. In my opinion, the land should be spilt up equally between the rural population and aid such as tools be provided to the farmers.

[Sebatianos]

All I'll say is:

There have been legaly elected presidents... and left wing presidents in Latin America, yet US kept overthrowing them - installing some right wind militarists...
Nicaragua (among others)...

[Tulac]

I think now almost whole South America has left winged presidents, what IMF
did there is a crime (Argentina, anybody?) they were/are trying to do the same thing in Eastern Europe...

[Galadrin]

I always enjoy how such articles ignore the fact that the Soviets had far superior jet technology and implementation than the west had. And how, now that democracy and capitalism is in place former "communist" nations, the populations there are now saying they were better off before.

Edit: Or at least certain demographics say that

[Chuck the plant]

Originally posted by Galadrin@Oct 4 2005, 11:19 PM
I always enjoy how such articles ignore the fact that the Soviets had far superior jet technology and implementation than the west had.

Whatever THAT has to do with the situation in Venezuale or any other country today... :blink:

@ topic: Well, I never read anything about the booming economies in south american states were the US had installed some US-friendly puppet-dictator after overthrowing legally elected socialist governments... So I'd say at least let 'em try for themselves this time. It won't get much worse anyway.

[Galadrin]

Well, the general thrust of the article was that everything related to socialist governments was inferior, when in fact the major reason for the fall of the USSR was better advertising, no matter what the propaganda says. The fall of "communism" was then used as a justification for the removal of a socialist government because of its inate inefficiencies and inability to provide for people, even though in general the South American socialist governments generaly don't take the top down management principles, which it could be argued are inherently inefficient, used in the USSR.

[Sebatianos]

Err...
Maybe you haven't realised, but the "inate inefficiencies and inability to provide for people" were not there because of the system, but because of the people that siezed power.

The real problem was, that a lot of money (way too much) was being put in the military. On one hand to compete in the arms race, on the other hand, to keep the military content. The key poeple that should do the analizes and should at least suggest the changes had to lie, otherwise the military and secret police forces would eliminate them (because giving less money to armed forces would lower their status and they didn't want that). Simple and rotten! And that's the real reason why the communist regimes collapsed. People were put on their functions according to their political views (and more importaintly - on their willingness to support certain state oraganizations that were able to perform executions).

South America has no such problems (at least not with its left wing politicitans), so their socialist parties are not even remotely comparable to the Soviet socialist party. But then again - I doubt you'd know anything aobut that...

And yes, many people claim that it was better under the communist regimes - and in many cases they are correct. There were things that were better then. But there were many reasons (some very complex) for that!

[Tulac]

Communism is superior in every way to capitalism, but people are the ones that made it look so bad, because of the corrupt leadership...
Human race is just not "good" enough for communism, however what's going on in Venezuela isn't pure communism, but fight against becoming a "banana" republic, or in Venezuelas example "oil" republic...
And the man who wrote that article is IMNHO an idiot...

[PrejudiceSucks]

Yeah. Exactly. As much as I would love to live in a world where everything was shared, it just goes completely against human nature.

Most communist countries really fell because the Americans (who had a lot of money but are now in astonishing debt due to their leader's abject idiocy) basically just bought everything they could, stripping comunism of its assets which fed the people and paid for everything. Once you get to a stage that communist countries don't have any industry then it's obviously going to fail. The American Government basically just go around interfering with whoever or whatever the current leader doesn't like.

Some of them didn't like communism, so communism was attacked. The 70's going well for the USA and USSR was because the American government had other problems and also that the presidents didn't really care about communism so much. In the 80's conservative governments (including that bitch Thatcher) got into power and started putting pressure on the USSR again. That's what led to its failure. Capitalists holding vendettas against communism for no reason other than that it got them votes.

It's the same with Iraq, but my views on that are heard far too often anyway, so I'll shut up.