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[Rogue]

You are looking at world without nationalism trough nationalism’s eyes.

If there are no nations, there is no need for some 'super monarch', as we are not the sheeps that we need someone to lead us, and tell us how to live our lives.

There should be a law, equal to all and that's it.

Just imagine peoples power if we don't have to spend billions of dollars for wars, guns and all that pucking army personal.

EU is a good example of people coming to their sense. Hopefully process will not stop.

[Stroggy]

See you are still talking about Negative Agressive Nationalism.
You equal Nationalism to War. While Nationalism is actually about unity and brotherhood and egality. Founded on the principles of the enlightenment (equality for all)
What you see now in Europe and the US IS Postitive Emancipating Nationalism.

The preserving of ones culture whilst living in harmony next to other cultures and people.

[Rogue]

Stroggy,
nationalism and patriotism are praised mostly when needed, and that is usually before the war. Good example in USA, after 9/11 everyone had to have flag at house, picture on tv and etc...

How good is that, was clear after first couple civilians where killed, as they did not look as image of nation (all of them Arabs), and Irony was that one of the Arabs was not muslim, but catholic.

Why to limit us on countries? Should we think better then that?

Come people, don't start to argue here again too hot.
This is how I see it:
Law in it's meaning shouldn't exist. Decisions over different areas of economy, science and education should be spread around many different departments where only people will work that really have good knowledge about what they're doing. And if there's something needed in this department that would need to ask another department, there would be consultation over the departments. And this brings to another point too:
To this system to work properly there would be a need of the entire world to be united to one nation, and people being educated from their birth on in correct way, so that they realize that it brings happiness to work with all others to bring another people happiness, instead only for themselves. And they should be educated to realize that work isn't a difficult and unpleasant thing to earn money, but an occupation that fits for them, that they can enjoy it and that it fullfills their conception of the sense of life because they will do something that they would like to do and that they can do best.
And for that again to be possible, our entire system needs to be rebuild on completely another foundation, so that work wouldn't be the support for survive, but an occupation to let people work on what they prefer to.
Utopian dream, I know. But should it ever become possible, patriotism and nationalism will become completely unnecessary junk. As what they in principle are, too.

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Anubis@Dec 11 2004, 08:14 PM
Stroggy,
nationalism and patriotism are praised mostly when needed, and that is usually before the war. Good example in USA, after 9/11 everyone had to have flag at house, picture on tv and etc...

American civilians have always had flags outside their homes. And what is so disgracefull about supporting your country when it was just terribly attacked.

if you go attacking others based on their colour or religion you are a rascist.

Example: After Theo Van Gogh was killed there were a few incidents of hate-crimes against the muslim community.
These were perpetrated by people who have always had resentment for the muslim community and now saw their chance to act out.

[Rogue]

Strrogy, not in this number, there was not that many flags before that tragedy. For couple of months, there was huge shortage of flags in states.

Nationalism and patriotism are all about this. It is about raising your national awareness and patriotism level. Why other then that people would be willing to go to wars and die?

[Stroggy]

See you are still thinking of the wrong kind of Nationalism.
I know that kind is bad, but i'm talking about the other kind.

jeesh, there is no getting through to you, is there?

[Rogue]

We supposed to agree? :blink: LOL

What is good example of positive nationalism for you?

[Sebatianos]

Let's define some things first!

We currently live in a time when nation and state borders are similar (if not identical) in most of the developed countries. All these borders were set after some wars and all in order to give a nation the freedom to decide for it self. There are still nations in Europe that are denied that (and resort to terroism - like ETA).
But this movements for national coutries weren't born at the conference - that was the resoult of it...
Superior monarchs that ruled multinational empires held the empire together with the 'god-given' power to rule over a certain peace of land. In those days people felt the loyalty for the monarch (it's a similar case like in modern US - don't tell me those people really feel those deep american roots - too few of them were there for a long enough time). That's also the reason why the president has much more power there - they feel loyalty to the president... In Europe people think differently about their polititians!
But the person that ruled spoke a language and at a certain point in time (beggining of the 16th century) people started using their own native language (their national language) instead of the language of the user - books got their translations from latin into other languages (before the protestant movemant of Martin Luther that was a rare case).
It was only then that nationalism started to take place. But patriotism was there before (it was loyalt to their local lord - the fuedal ruler they directly payed tribute to,...). That would be local-patriotism now.

So patriotism is something that makes you feel proud of the place you originate from (some feel it some don't - depends on the person). It's not a bad thing but it makes you less objective - so it can lead to disilusion, to conflicts, to foolish pride,... Or it can make you wanna return something to the place you're really proud off...

Nationalism is not a bad thing either - it simply means that you take pride in your nation. But it's easy to twist this feeling (and that has been done many times in the recent history of the 20th century). But it's understandable that a person would feel some national pride - it's the place where you were born, where you went to school, where you met your first love, where everybody speaks the same as you do, it's your bigger home... Or if you had to move to someplace else soon it can be your imagination that makes your motherland the best place in the world (because you make an ilusion that things that are bad for you now - wouldn't be if you lived there)!

But the question is what will happen soon - because the next trend it the globalization and melitng nations into one entity. I guess the proces on national states is dissapearing and we're a part of this process. It's the natural next step the people will take without planing it, knowing it, or being able to change it.

OH - Bohor, if you really need to run to Slovenia (hope not) - you're welcome.

[Stroggy]

You gave the example yourself when you talked about Europe.

This instead of this