Go Back   Forums > Community Chatterbox > Blah, blah, blah...
Memberlist Forum Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Search Forums:
Click here to use Advanced Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 15-11-2014, 10:29 PM   #1
Japo
Autonomous human
 
Japo's Avatar


 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: ,
Posts: 4,520
Default language phonetics :P

I don't mean writing alphabet, but sounds: how each is pronounced and how easy it is to distinguish between them or how hard it is to confuse two close ones :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Spanish
__________________
Life starts every day anew. Prospects not so good...
Japo is offline                         Send a private message to Japo
Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2014, 10:36 AM   #2
Smiling Spectre
10 GOSUB Abandonia
20 GOTO 10
 
Smiling Spectre's Avatar




 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cherkessk, Russian Federation
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via ICQ to Smiling Spectre Send a message via AIM to Smiling Spectre Send a message via MSN to Smiling Spectre
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Japo View Post
I don't mean writing alphabet, but sounds: how each is pronounced and how easy it is to distinguish between them or how hard it is to confuse two close ones :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Spanish
Hmm... I believe, it's "easy" only for you, who knows the language beforehand. You know this sounds, you can distinct them. I don't know sounds, so just as I hardly can distinct vowels in "cat", "bet" and "dead" in English, I see not much sense in your β, ŋ and w by link above. (I suppose, I would have the hard time, distincting β, v and w in Spanish. Other letters seems have direct analogues either in English, or Russian, so I would have no problems with them, possibly.
__________________
Smiling Spectre is offline                         Send a private message to Smiling Spectre
Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2014, 09:20 PM   #3
Japo
Autonomous human
 
Japo's Avatar


 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: ,
Posts: 4,520
Default

That's the question, b and β are different realizations of the same letter, that is we consider them the same sound and don't distinguish words by them. w (sounds just like u, except that w is followed by another vowel in the same syllable) is even more different from v than English w in what and b in bat. I think Russians and Dutch people tend to mix up English w and v and most can't quite pronounce either completely well, but in Spanish there's even no v, v is pronounced b. Also vowels can be realized short or long and it's the same word, unlike in English for example bitch and beach.

In Spanish there are fewer functional different sounds than letters in the Latin alphabet, and there aren't two that are not very clearly distinguishable. Even if there can be variations that language scientists classify as different, we consider close ones the same letter, and most Spanish speakers aren't conscious of the difference. There are only five vowels--long or short are the same; English in comparison has dozens of different vocalic sounds, that may be the only different between two unrelated words.
__________________
Life starts every day anew. Prospects not so good...
Japo is offline                         Send a private message to Japo
Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2014, 12:55 PM   #4
Smiling Spectre
10 GOSUB Abandonia
20 GOTO 10
 
Smiling Spectre's Avatar




 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cherkessk, Russian Federation
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via ICQ to Smiling Spectre Send a message via AIM to Smiling Spectre Send a message via MSN to Smiling Spectre
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Japo View Post
There are only five vowels--long or short are the same; English in comparison has dozens of different vocalic sounds, that may be the only different between two unrelated words.
Well, English was the only familiar example for me, so I taken it. It not means that I am comparing English and Spanish - only that both languages are foreign for me, and similarly have sounds that I cannot recognize - as I never heard them.
Quote:
w (sounds just like u, except that w is followed by another vowel in the same syllable) is even more different from v than English w in what and b in bat. I think Russians and Dutch people tend to mix up English w and v and most can't quite pronounce either completely well, but in Spanish there's even no v, v is pronounced b.
Err... So what's the difference between w and u then? %) And what about aforementioned "beta" sound? Isn't it v?
__________________
Smiling Spectre is offline                         Send a private message to Smiling Spectre
Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2014, 06:43 PM   #5
Japo
Autonomous human
 
Japo's Avatar


 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: ,
Posts: 4,520
Default

If you ask a Spanish speaker the difference between u and w, we'll say no difference. Language scientists classify them differently because w is u when preceding another vowel in the same syllable, thus a "semivowel". Whatever their reasons, the momentary sound is or can be the same.

beta is just b when it happens to be pronounced in between vowels instead of at the start of a word or sentence. Again we make no difference and most Spanish speakers won't realize, it's just that when you're speaking fast you don't stop to shut your lips to make a b. But whether you do, for emphasis or by chance, or not, it's considered the same letter.

There are 23 letters in the Latin alphabet. B and V are the same, as well as C and K (used in foreign words only) or Z depending on what follows. QU is the same as K. H is completely mute (not aspired), so no sound. Spanish has the extra sounds and CH (tsh), both perfectly distinguishable from any other letter; also LL, but nowadays Spaniards have merged it with the semivowel Y because it was too close so it was no good for us (the same reason why we got rid of aspired H centuries ago).

That means Spanish has only 21 phonems (whatever scientists say about w and beta), and none of them is close to any other. That's why it's so easy to understand. You never need to ask other people to spell a new word, even if you're just learning, whereas in English even native speakers need to do it for any unknown word such as unusual person's names.

Greek happens to have almost exactly the same phonetic system as Spanish, and Basque does too for reason of kinship, despite being completely unrelated philologically.
__________________
Life starts every day anew. Prospects not so good...

Last edited by Japo; 18-11-2014 at 06:51 PM.
Japo is offline                         Send a private message to Japo
Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2014, 02:05 PM   #6
Smiling Spectre
10 GOSUB Abandonia
20 GOTO 10
 
Smiling Spectre's Avatar




 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cherkessk, Russian Federation
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via ICQ to Smiling Spectre Send a message via AIM to Smiling Spectre Send a message via MSN to Smiling Spectre
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Japo View Post
That means Spanish has only 21 phonems (whatever scientists say about w and beta), and none of them is close to any other. That's why it's so easy to understand.
Ah. Good for you then. And thank you for the explanation.

I wished that Russian would be so simply. While it's generally follow "you can read exactly letters that you see" in most cases, it's not always true. And totally wrong in reverse - we usually write words as they originated, not as they _pronounced_. Belarus, being very close to Russian, more consistent with that.
__________________
Smiling Spectre is offline                         Send a private message to Smiling Spectre
Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2014, 09:08 PM   #7
arete
If All Else Fails, Play Dead
 
arete's Avatar


 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Waterside, South Africa
Posts: 3,133
Wink

I just love a good thick Russian accent That's how you can tell someone in an American movie is speaking Russian - they just speak English with a Russian accent to each other. It's madness!!! Pass the borscht!
__________________

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you..."
arete is offline                         Send a private message to arete
Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2014, 07:44 PM   #8
Smiling Spectre
10 GOSUB Abandonia
20 GOTO 10
 
Smiling Spectre's Avatar




 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cherkessk, Russian Federation
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via ICQ to Smiling Spectre Send a message via AIM to Smiling Spectre Send a message via MSN to Smiling Spectre
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arete View Post
I just love a good thick Russian accent That's how you can tell someone in an American movie is speaking Russian - they just speak English with a Russian accent to each other. It's madness!!! Pass the borscht!
Well, actually, in American movies they goes to hypertrophy side - actual Russian very rarely speak in such thick roaring accents. Our usual problem is different: it's extra sounds - like "g" in "-ing", "k" in "knight", and so on. We tends to talk too hard, comparing to Englishmen, but to real "Russian" accent you need German Schwarzenegger.
__________________
Smiling Spectre is offline                         Send a private message to Smiling Spectre
Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 08:44 PM   #9
arete
If All Else Fails, Play Dead
 
arete's Avatar


 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Waterside, South Africa
Posts: 3,133
Default

I'll be beck!
__________________

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you..."
arete is offline                         Send a private message to arete
Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2014, 03:47 PM   #10
Icewolf
Il Lupone
 
Icewolf's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Teufelsbruck, Germany
Posts: 1,338
Send a message via ICQ to Icewolf
Arrow

As for German:

If you want to say "German" in German say this in English:
doidsh
__________________
Icewolf is offline                         Send a private message to Icewolf
Reply With Quote
Reply


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Language Changes Evad Old Suggestions 4 03-01-2006 04:10 PM
New Language Available bruno Old Suggestions 8 06-10-2005 03:30 PM
Language RedHeadSebbe Blah, blah, blah... 10 30-08-2005 12:22 PM
What Language Is This? The Fifth Horseman Blah, blah, blah... 22 18-08-2005 06:44 PM
Linux Language Xinithaous Programming 8 13-07-2005 10:03 AM

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump
 


The current time is 05:22 PM (GMT)

 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.