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Old 14-08-2022, 04:32 PM   #621
Nicheal
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Oh, you like everything and then a huge list of complaints.

I was a desperate Ascendancy fanatic player in my childhood so I know EXACTLY whats crap and whats to change - as far as I can.

> In what way the shields are not balanced? Energy consumption?

> I LOVE these expensive planetary buildings. Spares a lot of micro management. I always found it sad, that after 1800 turns the research is over, and after 2 turns any planet is completely built up, and you dont even build all ship stuff or Huge Class Ships cause all is built so easy and cheap and fast.

I wanted to make it more realistic and slow and beneficial - the AI benefits, cause it builds up slow, so, in middle game it has enough empty planet slots to build the good stuff, and in late game it has much bad stuff. That just hampers the human, not the AI, cause the AI has AI War Center to boost its industry. If you want the AI faster, use Ascend00 Heavy.cob! Or even brutal.
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Old 14-08-2022, 07:05 PM   #622
Admiral Loknar
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Originally Posted by Nicheal View Post
> In what way the shields are not balanced? Energy consumption?
Basically the way combat works now: AI have infinite energy effectively, so the Distance management doesn't matter vs enemy ships. You have two approaches:
- wait until AI comes at you in 30 sq distance to shoot first, enable shields and disable AI ships with powerful specials to pick them apart from Distance 40 or 60 depending on your weapons.
- load up with the most cost effective one range 40 and mostly range 30 weapons, and have enough energy to kill AI in the first turn.

That 1st part is possible in the midgame cause shields take unproportional amount of energy or you have to take the full hit. And as you can see you usually need shields only for a single turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicheal View Post
> I LOVE these expensive planetary buildings. Spares a lot of micro management. I always found it sad, that after 1800 turns the research is over, and after 2 turns any planet is completely built up, and you dont even build all ship stuff or Huge Class Ships cause all is built so easy and cheap and fast.

I wanted to make it more realistic and slow and beneficial - the AI benefits, cause it builds up slow, so, in middle game it has enough empty planet slots to build the good stuff, and in late game it has much bad stuff. That just hampers the human, not the AI, cause the AI has AI War Center to boost its industry. If you want the AI faster, use Ascend00 Heavy.cob! Or even brutal.
I don't get how this benefits AI exactly. Also AI builds those War Centers around turn 1000, so usually I have to cycle through them and build War Center on their Home World at the very least. I beat Brutal on Sparse map under 100 turns, but I think your mod is meant to be played at Very Dense setting, so you can't steamroll AI as easily.

The way eco progression works now on the new planets: depending on the planet you build up your planet to 11, 13, 15, 17 or 20 Industry ASAP. Usually you have about 12 PP on average with natural development of the first POP row. At this point you will also have 4 Prosperity and 1 free POP to start building mandatory Orbital Shipyard. It takes 40-50 turns usually and your POP grows during that time. After that point you build Research and Prosperity (to get to 3-4) until 1 free POP left and then do your Small Hull Colony Ship. Repeat that process until full.

Your next step is replacing Agropots with Research buildings. After that replace Factories with Shipyards gradually. OFC insert new ships when you have free slots. Then its time to upgrade Research buildings to 600 Production Points versions. You never have time to build anything above 600 PP buildings. Especially stuff that costs more than 1200. Its absurd how 600 PP Shipyard basically the same as 1200 PP Mega Factory.

I believe you wanted to balance building cost around Ships, but what ended up happening is AI taking too much time to develop new colonies due to Shipyard cost and their love to build it when they have 5 Production Points per turn. Then if they have free ship slots what will happen is queueing up ships on those new planets as well as on the proper colonies with AI War Centers. Basically for the first like 1000 turns and sometimes more AI is very vulnerable.

If you want my suggestions I will up to provide some. I'm playing Master of Orion 2 and 3 at the highest level for more than 2 decades, so I have the gist on how to balance 4X games.
                       
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Old 14-08-2022, 07:51 PM   #623
Nicheal
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Wow, MOO2 on highest, wufff. Since I found out how MOO2 cheats on highest there is no point for me anymore to suffer cheat magic and no fun at all. So I mostly play the second hardest. I won Colonization on highest once, thats enough!

The problem with shields is, that the AI uses them hardcoded, it has zero, one, or sometimes, I think, two onboard, and their AI usage is dubious. My target is that human player uses these wisely, just at some spearhead occasions. I dont want them to be invulnerable for the human player - but that happens if you give them more defense and less energy - the human player builds three of them and AI FK OFF. No no no! Less defense and more energy, they might rescue some of your ships sending them back to dockyard highly damaged. I use the most specials like shields - they shall be a slight edge, no magic to fool the AI.

I suggest, if you have an interest to work that out, to make an account CivFanatics and write a PM - or same here, but Abandonia is a bit slow often.

Yes. The first encounter might be a pushover. Right. But I just am not capable to rescue ALL the Ascendancies stupidities, that would be a thing for programmer Hercules, some kind of greek mythological hero.

Playing MOO2 on highest you usually get a solar system gap so that you miss one early tec to reach out early to delay the human player under a booming AI steamroller. Right, the first encounter is a pushover, BUT, I played testgames Middle Galaxy size, the next encounter could be a challenge, and the huger the galaxy the more.

To be honest I dont think like a Legend player to calculate all to the last point. I want, that if you get a great building, that it is well deserved, I dont want all buildings to be cheap and easy and so, just a micro management spam, puke.

IF you want to change stuff use Notepad++ to change the Ascend00.cob to your satisfaction. Around line 7500 the planetary buildings are - I made sure you have space to change values, just dont change the endpoint, that 255, do not include more stuff over the available space or it crashes!
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Old 14-08-2022, 09:55 PM   #624
Admiral Loknar
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Post Quick Answers [Detailed stuff later]

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Wow, MOO2 on highest, wufff. Since I found out how MOO2 cheats on highest there is no point for me anymore to suffer cheat magic and no fun at all. So I mostly play the second hardest. I won Colonization on highest once, thats enough!
What I meant is Multiplayer and Optimal Runs. Single players is 0 challenge in any 4X game. You can win Huge Galaxy against 7 Impossible AI's with the best custom races in MOO 2 in under 100 turns consistently without wormholes.

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The problem with shields is, that the AI uses them hardcoded, it has zero, one, or sometimes, I think, two onboard, and their AI usage is dubious. My target is that human player uses these wisely, just at some spearhead occasions. I dont want them to be invulnerable for the human player - but that happens if you give them more defense and less energy - the human player builds three of them and AI FK OFF. No no no! Less defense and more energy, they might rescue some of your ships sending them back to dockyard highly damaged. I use the most specials like shields - they shall be a slight edge, no magic to fool the AI.
I see. The thing is that shields completely useless now due to one simple fact: when you have enough energy to activate shields you better use it to use for speed advantage. By that I mean constantly keeping the distance and having enough firepower to kill the enemy with 40 range weapons. AI always moves to the max extent, so you can always figure out how to outrange them and shoot without being answered if they don't have 40 range weapons as well. You shoot, they respond by moving closer, you move away using extra speed, they move closer, but not close enough to answer your second shot. Repeat cycle until they die. Only possible if you have enough energy, therefore Barrage Gun can be your best weapon for a long time.

You can always include rules on the fair Shield usage and balance them properly. You will lose a lot of time if you go back repairing ships. Usually I only use Docks to refit ships. By that I mean producing ship on specialized world with all non-essential slots filled with Star Drives to refit them later.


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Yes. The first encounter might be a pushover. Right. But I just am not capable to rescue ALL the Ascendancies stupidities, that would be a thing for programmer Hercules, some kind of greek mythological hero.

To be honest I dont think like a Legend player to calculate all to the last point. I want, that if you get a great building, that it is well deserved, I dont want all buildings to be cheap and easy and so, just a micro management spam, puke.
What I was trying to say that returns don't match investments at all. And think about it in terms of impact you get from a ship that costs the same or even less. I will write more specifics when I have free time on my hands.

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Originally Posted by Nicheal View Post
IF you want to change stuff use Notepad++ to change the Ascend00.cob to your satisfaction. Around line 7500 the planetary buildings are - I made sure you have space to change values, just dont change the endpoint, that 255, do not include more stuff over the available space or it crashes!
Yes, I know bout that. I even used CobExtractors to look up Research point cost values. But I think there should be some hidden modifier I wasn't able to locate, but my best guess is that my planetary development strategy is the optimal one.

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I suggest, if you have an interest to work that out, to make an account CivFanatics and write a PM - or same here, but Abandonia is a bit slow often.
The reason I write here is that its impossible for me to sign up on CivFanatics no matter the workaround I use. Admins there hate me. My account on the Abandonia still not confirmed, therefore I reduced to posting that way.
                       
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Old 15-08-2022, 12:13 PM   #625
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1) I prefer not to use "House Rules", that I NEED an AI Tec, AI Energy and AI Industry is clear, but that shall be all. AI Warfare Tec, AI War Engine, AI War Center, END. Even that is considered "cheating" already - that ALL AI in ALL games cheats, and that Ascendancy needs that most, who cares.

2) Yes, Research Points include a Multiplier somewhere, I think within the .exe, but anyhow my Tec Tree seems perfect to me, a beauty, and all well established.

3) HIGHLY appreciate that I can talk a little.

4) I did the best my brain could do enhance that as good as I can. Obviously, that result was my absolute best and maximum. I worked on advanced and by far superior diplomacy for my Ascendelyxe 2.1 version, perhaps next few weeks when another testplay I could finish that 2.1 up. But that is my personal best I was capable of, and I am satisfied within these boundaries.

5) IF you think to get that done better, feel free! If some guy out there would be capable of doing that even better, do it! Since you can use Notepad++, and since you used already COBExtractor, just change that into your prefered values and send it to me. I am expert enough to see what I will see then.

6) But as long no good Python programmer would open the accessible .exe to enhance stuff completely - my patience with Antag.exe wore zero, and my patience with all these lacks wore into a stage where I say: I did my best, not MY fault the lack of other kants. These Logic Factory guys were capable 2011 to do an IOS only version, so these sh**y guys had some years plus easy access to enhance that game and did NOTHING. We speak about Ascendancy, a highly frustrating and lacking game from 1995 its own creators didnt find worthy to change for 50 kb in its .exe, so, that I came that far is a nice touch for me! That the Disintegrator shoots finally, for example.

7) I currently fulfilled yet another dream of my childhood - a Star General SSI total conversion so that will be my fun now! Ascendancy is not a thing of my total focus, that cranc little kant.

8) Ooo, yes, what you forgot: The slots are not infinite. So, any planet shall build at least something, and the orbit has 10 slots, a planet far more. I actually dont care at all. A human player has to build up a basic colony, then shipyard, dockyard, weapons and shields, that limits the orbital structures, but it is INTENDED that the human player would build up shipyard dockyard super orbital facilities - if the human player wants to perfect that, he still has MORE slots on planet surface, but still not infinite, so, to increase quality he should increase quality, since he could do it.

To increase research is not necessary, but possible. To increase industry would be necessary and possible, the human player can build basic structures, and if possible or necessary, could build enhanced structures, and that is costly, simply. You increase the SLOT quality when all slots filled, if necessary, cause possible. But you dont need to. In huge til giant galaxies you should do it to match the huge AI enemies OR, on heavy or brutal, the huge advantage of AI industry boost.

I wanted the human player to be capable of enhancing quality, or to be capable of spare that micro management orgy completely. So! You can just build up basics, then orbit, then have fun, OR, you could enhance the slots by quality building specialized super planets. I just dont think that any human out there would mass spam micro managing all planets to the bitter death. So, you could do all you wish, but you could spare that either, to just game. But to enhance quality is costly and comes with a cost, both, time and micro management. It is an option to increase, sometimes necessary, often just the benefit of luxury. That is intended to work that way.

That are my thoughts about it. And Xeno Archeology, I even wanted to increase in time, NOT decrease! Or to delete it completely, cause that is in any case an OP thing giving OP stuff, at the moment.

Last edited by Nicheal; 15-08-2022 at 12:54 PM.
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