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[Rogue]

Sorry,
I don't take anything for granted (you notice that already). I'll try to find couple books about this. (In a week or so, after I'm done with the final exams)

One of the things they don't do is generalizing. We don't know much about some parts of our history, and early historian used to generalize some things, and made some wrong assumptions.

I'll do a small here.

It was believed that pyramids in Egypt have been built by slaves, but resent discoveries showed that pyramids where build by trained workers, who used to live close to pyramid with their families. This and more is found after workers city is discovered. So in history you can't take anything for granted, as there is always some chance that you might discover another fact.

[Stroggy]

Yes i heared about this theory serveral times. Mainly the guide was lauding this theory.
But even there the evidence is quite meager: if you concider the fact that they found remains of fish in the worker camps proof that the workers weren't slaves, or that the head-master of the slaves was granted a tomb.
i'm sorry but thats hardly substantial evidence.

I've seen both the National Geographic documentary aswell as heard the guide rattle on about it and you must agree that fishbones, a grave belonging to an architect and communal sleeping halls are far from substantial evidence that all those who built the pyramids were indeed workers.

[Rogue]

Evidence is not based only on that! (and I am sure you know that too)

First of all there is evidence that they performed surgical procedure on workers. If they were slaves, do you think they would try to heal them, or just simply replace them? Also they found evidence that workers belonged to groups, and that there was kind of competition between the groups (who will do more).

Also, it's not just fish that they found, but all different kind of food, including bones of animals. By analyzing the worker bones, they figure out that workers have been feed really well. Also they found a whole bread baking village. Another discovery happened after they found workers houses. They lived family lives, which also brings idea of them being a worker, not slave, as it was believed before.

And for the end, there might be some slaves, but it's not as it was believed before, and you have right to have your own opinion, and believe whatever you like. For some reason I found one of professors from British archeology team to be more trustworthy then you.

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Anubis@Dec 6 2004, 04:35 PM
For some reason I found one of professors from British archeology team to be more trustworthy then you.

Oh I believe the ammount of exports who denounce this theory way outnumber the supporters.

First of all there is evidence that they performed surgical procedure on workers

yes but by whome? The egyptians or the slaves themselves, patching one another up after a terrible day of labour.

they found evidence that workers belonged to groups

I'm sure the egyptians had mastered the foundations of scientific management by then. Organized work (workers devided in groups and each given specific tasks) speeds up production (or construction in this case) whereas everybody running around working in an unordered fashion will cause confusion and eventually create setbacks.

there was kind of competition between the groups (who will do more).

This is something the documentary itself claimed not to be so sure about. Since it was possible that those that carried out the most work got more benefits. Or perhaps the egyptian contruction overseers kept records of who did more work and who needed some extra 'motivation' aka whips

Also, it's not just fish that they found, but all different kind of food, including bones of animals. By analyzing the worker bones, they figure out that workers have been feed really well. Also they found a whole bread baking village.

The supportors of this theory appear to forget this was a slavecamp, not a deathcamp.
What good is a starving slave? A starving slave surely can't haul massive slabs of rocks from the quary to the building site.

Another discovery happened after they found workers houses. They lived family lives, which also brings idea of them being a worker, not slave, as it was believed before.

Nobody ever disputed the fact that the slaves had families. Once again what good is a slave if he doesn't leave offspring to continue his work?

[Havell]

The way I heard that the pyramids were built was that while the Nile was flooding, when there was nothing to do other than wait for the waters to subside, the people were recruited to build pyramids and when the flood waters went away they came back to work on their farms.

[Rogue]

yes but by whome? The egyptians or the slaves themselves, patching one another up after a terrible day of labour.

First of all, there was no evidence before of some procedures as amputation. After discovering more of workers grave, they found bones of workers that had for example hand amputated. Bones showed that workers was able to work after this, which means that there was no infection. DO you really believe slaves had tools, and knowledge to do this by them selves?

Or perhaps the egyptian contruction overseers kept records of who did more work and who needed some extra 'motivation' aka whips

You really believe that they used whips on the workers? Do you believe that they should find them around (like they found the tools), or at least be able to see them on the walls as representation of might (which they loved to do at that time)?? All evidence showed that workers where treated really good, and that they were crafty handymen.

Should slave have possession? Think about that, as they find a lot of stuff in workers houses.

Why don’t you say why you don’t like this theory? It might save us a lot of time, as at the end we will came to that.

Yet, again you can show all your ignorance to the facts…

[Stroggy]

First of all, there was no evidence before of some procedures as amputation. After discovering more of workers grave, they found bones of workers that had for example hand amputated. Bones showed that workers was able to work after this, which means that there was no infection. DO you really believe slaves had tools, and knowledge to do this by them selves?

I wasn't aware carbondating could tell the age of a fracture days apart.
What is the proof that the worker did indeed no die of an infection, that fractures suffered were caused a week or a month before.

You really believe that they used whips on the workers? Do you believe that they should find them around (like they found the tools), or at least be able to see them on the walls as representation of might (which they loved to do at that time)?? All evidence showed that workers where treated really good, and that they were crafty handymen.

you mean except for the fact that whips were actively made like pens nowadays. And the fact that buildingmasters are portrayed lashing the slaves with whips, as yous aid yourself, there is indeed no evidence :whistle:

So you claim these images found in serveral tombs were just fantasies. Images of delusions of power. Thats fair... tell me have you ever heard of the phrase "the simple solution is usually the right one", I think it is applicable here.

Why don’t you say why you don’t like this theory?

Simply because I agree with the majority of the archeologists who claim these theories to be erronous. I simply disagree with it and whenever I ehar these so-called facts I feel as if the entire story was twisted into confirming these "facts"
Your whip-theory being the pinnacle-example of this.

Yet, again you can show all your ignorance to the facts…

And so the prey feels cornered and lashes out, much like a skunk unleashes a foul-smelling gas at its predator at a time of distress.

Lord, grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

[Rogue]

I wasn't aware carbondating could tell the age of a fracture days apart.
What is the proof that the worker did indeed no die of an infection, that fractures suffered were caused a week or a month before.

If somebody amputates hand, end of the bone looks different if a hand is being used for a long time, then if you never used it. It's very simple. Doctors are also able to predict how long this person was living without the hand.

you mean except for the fact that whips were actively made like pens nowadays. And the fact that buildingmasters are portrayed lashing the slaves with whips, as yous aid yourself, there is indeed no evidence*

So you claim these images found in serveral tombs were just fantasies. Images of delusions of power. Thats fair... tell me have you ever heard of the phrase "the simple solution is usually the right one", I think it is applicable here.

See, you wrong here too. Theory does not say that there were no slaves in Egypt, but that there were no slaves in most of work on pyramids. Reason is simple. Trained worker are much more productive and easier to work with then slaves. (Who most likely did not speak the same language?!)

As I said, there are new proofs (not even a year) that support this theory, and I believe that majority of archeologist will be convinced with the facts. (Except the one who don't like to be persuaded by the facts, and are having their own beliefs) If major of archeologist believe something, will you too?


Once again, why are you avoiding to say real reason why you are opposing this theory?

[Stroggy]

Originally posted by Anubis@Dec 6 2004, 06:18 PM


See, you wrong here too. Theory does not say that there were no slaves in Egypt, but that there were no slaves in most of work on pyramids. Reason is simple. Trained worker are much more productive and easier to work with then slaves. (Who most likely did not speak the same language?!)

As I said, there are new proofs (not even a year) that support this theory, and I believe that majority of archeologist will be convinced with the facts. (Except the one who don't like to be persuaded by the facts, and are having their own beliefs) If major of archeologist believe something, will you too?


Once again, why are you avoiding to say real reason why you are opposing this theory?

See, you wrong here too. Theory does not say that there were no slaves in Egypt, but that there were no slaves in most of work on pyramids. Reason is simple. Trained worker are much more productive and easier to work with then slaves. (Who most likely did not speak the same language?!)

Yes its much more clever to waste intelligent workers than slaves... isn't it?
Everybody spoke Egyptian, it was like English is today.

You're argument doesn't hold ground

As I said, there are new proofs (not even a year) that support this theory, and I believe that majority of archeologist will be convinced with the facts.

You accuse me of not being able to know what is going on in Israelbecause i live in europe, yet here you are claiming you are up to date with all the recent finds in Egypt.
Sorry to say so but up till now most archeologists are sceptical about dropping years of proof (like the wallpaintings) for some theory which doesn't completely fit the image.

(Except the one who don't like to be persuaded by the facts, and are having their own beliefs)

Allah forbid people having other beliefs than those you hold dear, eh Anub?

Once again, why are you avoiding to say real reason why you are opposing this theory?

You assumed I didn't tell you the real reason?
Pray do tell me what my reason is. Since its obvious you are fishing for some reason.
Maybe you'll find some intricate web which proves that the theory that it wasn't slaves that built the pyramids proves that Israel is now killing Palestinians and that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a real book and that I, as a wicked zionist with a crooked nose and a thirst for blood and money, am trying to hide this from the world.

You crack me up little buddy

[Rogue]

Originally posted by Stroggy+Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Stroggy @ Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yes its much more clever to waste intelligent workers than slaves... isn't it?
Everybody spoke Egyptian, it was like English is today.[/b]

Only in Hollywood everybody speaks the same language. Not so true. it all depends from where slaves where. At that time even tribes had their own dialects and different languages.

Originally posted by Stroggy@Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM
You're argument doesn't hold ground

You a bit funny here. LOL

Originally posted by Stroggy@Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM
You accuse me of not being able to know what is going on in Israelbecause i live in europe, yet here you are claiming you are up to date with all the recent finds in Egypt.

Now you are mixing a bit. You are biased toward Israel, and you don't believe any other news except Israel's. What that has to do with me and Egypt? Me being biased towards old Egypt and their religion (my nick is one of the gods, which surely proves it LOL) See, here you are wrong. If they prove that this theory is wrong, I will accept what archeologists conclude. And till that, there is no reason why I should not believe that new findings are not fine?

Originally posted by Stroggy@Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM
Sorry to say so but up till now most archeologists are sceptical about dropping years of proof (like the wallpaintings) for some theory which doesn't completely fit the image.

Image is every day more complete, as they dig more and more from the workers city site, which used to be a home for about 20000 people. Archeologist did not have this evidence before, so they just guessed, now the guess will end.

Originally posted by Stroggy@Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM
Allah forbid people having other beliefs than those you hold dear, eh Anub?

What Allah has to do with this?

Originally posted by Stroggy@Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM
You assumed I didn't tell you the real reason?
Pray do tell me what my reason is. Since its obvious you are fishing for some reason.
Maybe you'll find some intricate web which proves that* the theory that it wasn't slaves that built the pyramids proves that Israel is now killing Palestinians and that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a real book and that I, as a wicked zionist with a crooked nose and a thirst for blood and money, am trying to hide this from the world.

You are starting again with all those lies. (they might become true if you just repeat them enough ) This only shows what kind of stress you live under, and how do you assume that anybody who does not think the same as you is anti-Zionist.

This does not prove much more, then that pyramids were built by trained workers, and that project of this size at that time was done by good use of work force, not by torture, as suggested in Hollywood.

<!--QuoteBegin-Stroggy@Dec 6 2004, 01:58 PM
You crack me up little buddy[/quote]

Time will (and is already showing) who cracked here. Would not call you 'little' as that might offend you. :not_ok: