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Old 28-08-2011, 09:13 PM   #21
Wicky
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Originally Posted by kmonster View Post
An Icewind dale standard party is fighter, fighter, cleric, thief, mage, bard with maybe 1 stat per character higher than 15.
Where have you read that? 30x rolling stats on a human fighter showed, that none was below 78 points. That equals two stats at maximum (!) 18 and all others at 10 even for a below average character. That means you lied, kmonster. Begone!
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Old 28-08-2011, 11:20 PM   #22
kmonster
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Where have you read that? 30x rolling stats on a human fighter showed, that none was below 78 points. That equals two stats at maximum (!) 18 and all others at 10 even for a below average character. That means you lied, kmonster. Begone!
No, I didn't lie.
You think everyone plays the game like you, maxes stats to 18. Take a look at the NPCs in Baldur's Gate, none of them has 18 in 2 stats, Jaheira or Minsc have only 1 stat above 15, the pregenerated IWD characters don't have many stats maxed either.
You are not a standard player, the game wasn't balanced for players spending days creating characters with 18 in 5 stats. More players just take the first roll to create their characters without lowering/raising attributes and are skilled enough to finish the game with them without dualclassing. Are you really such a weak player that you think the game isn't beatable with rather "normal" characters ? Yoga the Brave will show you how a party you wouldn't dare to continue playing will be victorious at the end !
In terms of party creation Yoga is far closer to the "standard" player than you, remember Yoga's BG1 and BG2 protagonists who vaporized Sarevok and Irenicus with lightning speed or the stats of the first IWD party you can read in the BG2 thread, not many 18s were used.

Last edited by kmonster; 28-08-2011 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 28-08-2011, 11:41 PM   #23
Capo
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Non,non, impossibile!

Your hero Capo character is the best character with the best armor and equipment and weaponry.
My favorite.
Pls see attached picture.

Grazie, amigo.

Oh, In BG yesterday temperatures reached 37 Degrees after Celsius.
But yoga stayed under working conditioner and plays and plays.
Looking good
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Old 28-08-2011, 11:43 PM   #24
twillight
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Originally Posted by kmonster View Post
No, I didn't lie.
You think everyone plays the game like you, maxes stats to 18. Take a look at the NPCs in Baldur's Gate, none of them has 18 in 2 stats, Jaheira or Minsc have only 1 stat above 15, the pregenerated IWD characters don't have many stats maxed either.
You are not a standard player, the game wasn't balanced for players spending days creating characters with 18 in 5 stats. More players just take the first roll to create their characters without lowering/raising attributes and are skilled enough to finish the game with them without dualclassing. Are you really such a weak player that you think the game isn't beatable with rather "normal" characters ? Yoga the Brave will show you how a party you wouldn't dare to continue playing will be victorious at the end !
In terms of party creation Yoga is far closer to the "standard" player than you, remember Yoga's BG1 and BG2 protagonists who vaporized Sarevok and Irenicus with lightning speed or the stats of the first IWD party you can read in the BG2 thread, not many 18s were used.
First: most people do bother to reroll at least a dozen times, and rearrange stats.
Second: the BG-series offers an adventage to the player: it balances the difficulty adjusted to the player's level - not a feature IWD has.
Third: yoga a lot of times only barely strougled through BG.
Fourth: the pre-generated characters (what comes with the game officially) are actually cheated (they have much better stats then you'd have by rolling the characters yourself).
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Old 29-08-2011, 06:49 AM   #25
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First: most people do bother to reroll at least a dozen times, and rearrange stats.
Second: the BG-series offers an adventage to the player: it balances the difficulty adjusted to the player's level - not a feature IWD has.
Third: yoga a lot of times only barely strougled through BG.
Fourth: the pre-generated characters (what comes with the game officially) are actually cheated (they have much better stats then you'd have by rolling the characters yourself).
Right, bashing time then. First, not everybody is a powergaming munchkin. Second, kmonster is right, the standard AD&D party is fighter,cleric,mage,thief. Since IWD offers 6 slots, I'd say two mages and a second fighter class (ranger, paladin). Third, last to my knowledge, IWD balances too, enemies have less hp and don't use all spells on lower levels. Fourth: they are not cheated. It's called DMs option. The NPCs in a campaign aren't rolled, they are created to provide a challenge. Just because your chargen doesn't allow for those stats statistically, calling it cheating is pretty detrimental. Fifth, there is a reason why single class is preferred in AD&D. You have to be one of the nonhuman races to multiclass, and if you check xp and progression tables, all nonhumans have caps on certain classes. Not a quote, but if I recall correctly, the elven thief goes only to level 8 or 9. Which means even IF Icewind Dale would go to the epics, your elven mage/thief would be royally screwed, because it can only take 8 thief levels. And in a campaign that has traps for lvl30-40 thieves, she wouldn't be able to disable jackshit. Not to mention the little fact, that your all powerful fighter/thief you send to the front lines has to wear leather armor, or take off that full plate every time it spots a trap to disable it.
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Old 29-08-2011, 12:48 PM   #26
yoga
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Talking This is just a game, Mates!

Peace, bros, peace!

Do not stand on the war track, please.

Remember that we are here not to demonstrate who is smarter but to enjoy friendly chatting and discussion.

If someone will feel better if he think that yoga is idiot No any problem to confess I am such person.
ha ha

Very polite note if You do not mind.

I realized that much of You have some scientific interest to RPG gaming.
You are ready to discus days and nights that somebody is not correct choosing 18 or 1 stats because ...
Very nice.

Y'now the brave is not good in some discussions.
I created some formation after yr kind advices, grab sword or AK-47 (Caro Capo, I know that western game creators do not used this good weapon in their games. Strange, Master?) and start to liberate the world from the next bad Frank..

OFF
Hunvagy, may I very kindly greet You with one nice song:
The raggle taggle gypsy by the Chieftains ?
I think You can find it in Youtube.
Sry, AB has not musical option..

No off
Miracle, miracle!!
I am forced to do some very extraordinary work to 14 o'clock today BG time.
But I protested that even I am the brave this work is practically impossible for such short time period and they agreed to allow me to work to tomorrow morning.
--yoga, what is BG time?
GMT + 2 hours, mate.
Note: As I mentioned in some post here BG is not Baldur's gate but Bulgaria - small, sunny and lovely country of the brave.

@twillight
Dear Mage, what do You mean by "poor yoga"? The world POOR has many nuances. Good and not so good.
TY

hard working yoga in the next 10 hours
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Old 29-08-2011, 08:13 PM   #27
twillight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunvagy View Post
Right, bashing time then. First, not everybody is a powergaming munchkin. Second, kmonster is right, the standard AD&D party is fighter,cleric,mage,thief. Since IWD offers 6 slots, I'd say two mages and a second fighter class (ranger, paladin). Third, last to my knowledge, IWD balances too, enemies have less hp and don't use all spells on lower levels. Fourth: they are not cheated. It's called DMs option. The NPCs in a campaign aren't rolled, they are created to provide a challenge. Just because your chargen doesn't allow for those stats statistically, calling it cheating is pretty detrimental. Fifth, there is a reason why single class is preferred in AD&D. You have to be one of the nonhuman races to multiclass, and if you check xp and progression tables, all nonhumans have caps on certain classes. Not a quote, but if I recall correctly, the elven thief goes only to level 8 or 9. Which means even IF Icewind Dale would go to the epics, your elven mage/thief would be royally screwed, because it can only take 8 thief levels. And in a campaign that has traps for lvl30-40 thieves, she wouldn't be able to disable jackshit. Not to mention the little fact, that your all powerful fighter/thief you send to the front lines has to wear leather armor, or take off that full plate every time it spots a trap to disable it.
1) There are not enough scrolls for two mages in IWD.
2) It is not "powrgaming" to use minimal common sense.
3) The characters in question are not "statistically impossible". +100 thief skills compared to the maximum avaiable points (same level, same race etc.) for example is definitly "cheating".
4) What the *bleep* was that after "Fifth ..."?
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Old 30-08-2011, 06:58 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by twillight View Post
1) There are not enough scrolls for two mages in IWD.
2) It is not "powrgaming" to use minimal common sense.
3) The characters in question are not "statistically impossible". +100 thief skills compared to the maximum avaiable points (same level, same race etc.) for example is definitly "cheating".
4) What the *bleep* was that after "Fifth ..."?
1) Right, so who's metagaming then?
2) Min maxing is not minimal common sense. Please refer to that statistics crap up a few posts about 18 on two and 10 on everything else if you have a hard time understanding.
3) As said, DM option. Given that the devs had to be prepared for item hoarding soloing, metagaming munchkins, like a certain mage/thief min maxed and knowing all the enemies by heart. And no, will not get into an argument in this, your whole playthrough reports shows that. And for me, playing a game designed for a party of 6 alone is not a challenge or an achievment, since you can't do it without knowing the location of every loot and enemy. "I don't do the quests, because I don't need xp anymore, and the items it gives is shit" Yeah, no powergaming my arse.
4) This:

Quote:
For those of you who never played an earlier version of D&D, a "demihuman" is an old (and nonexistant in 3E D&D) term for "dwarf, elf, half-elf, gnome, halfling, or half-orc," and demihuman level limits were limitations placed on the character level advancement of these demihumans. Dwarves were limited to about level 9 as fighters, elves were limited to level 11 as wizards, and so on (although every class has unlimited advancement as thieves, oddly enough, and yes, the rogue class was called the thief class in earlier editions).

So, if you were playing an elf wizard, and the rest of your friends were playing humans, the theory was that when your group got to 11th level, your character would stop gaining levels, but your human friends wouldn't. Even though elves were supposed to be naturally good at magic. Even though elves live ten times long as a human. But hit that 11th level barrier and you were stuck.

Enough people thought that this was crazy, and introduced rules where demihumans could advance a certain number of levels past their level limit if they were single classed and they had a very high ability score of the appropriate type. Which basically meant that if you were an elf wizard with a high Int (and if you were a single-classed wizard, why wouldn't you have a high Int back then, especially when the scores between 9 and 14 had very little difference in terms of game effects?) the level limits were irrelevant. Similarly for the high-Strength dwarf fighter, and so on.

The theory behind level limits was this (and it dates back to 1st edition AD&D): Demihumans get a lot of good stuff at 1st level that human doesn't get (bonus languages, infravision, weird special abilities or immunities, and so on), and to offset that advantage they were penalized later, so the humans could really shine.

This of course ignored the concept of ancient dwarven fighters who really kicked ass, or centuries-old elven wizards that could cast spell to protect an entire forest, and so on.

It also ignored two other things that have a direct impact on the game as it is played. One, the AD&D game rules (whether 1st or 2nd edition) really started to break down after level 10, which meant that most people stopped playing when the game got to that level (simply because the game got too broken). Two, most gaming groups restart their campaign (either in the same world or another) about every six to nine months, which means that most games never got to the levels where demihuman level limits would be a factor.

In other words, the demihuman advantages were offset by a disadvantage that almost never came into play. That's quite unfair to humans.
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Old 30-08-2011, 07:37 PM   #29
twillight
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1) Right, so who's metagaming then?
2) Min maxing is not minimal common sense. Please refer to that statistics crap up a few posts about 18 on two and 10 on everything else if you have a hard time understanding.
3) As said, DM option. Given that the devs had to be prepared for item hoarding soloing, metagaming munchkins, like a certain mage/thief min maxed and knowing all the enemies by heart. And no, will not get into an argument in this, your whole playthrough reports shows that. And for me, playing a game designed for a party of 6 alone is not a challenge or an achievment, since you can't do it without knowing the location of every loot and enemy. "I don't do the quests, because I don't need xp anymore, and the items it gives is shit" Yeah, no powergaming my arse.
4) This:
Yeah. How f*in' convincing from someone suggesting using Shadowkeeper and FakeTalk

Over and out.
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Old 30-08-2011, 09:14 PM   #30
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Yeah. How f*in' convincing from someone suggesting using Shadowkeeper and FakeTalk

Over and out.
Huh? please show me where I suggested using the character editor. I want to see that quote from me.
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