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[PrejudiceSucks]

Oh so controversial...

[unclefester]

I think that the EU in its present form is not some sort of confederation of the european nations. I t is a merely an institution whose goal is just to aid the GOVERMENTS of the member states to aplly the new-liberal polices. The PEOPLE have no real power over the European Council or the Commision. This is extremely obvious from the fact that most decisions are not made by the European Parliament but by the Commisionant counsil of the ministers. In fact this has been already made clear by the writers of the European Constitution, which in my opinion is as dead as mummy. I read in a newspaper that a man named Ziscar (d'Estene?) want to be written in the introduction of the European Constitution what Thucedides said about democracy.

Our political system is called democracy because power is not in the hand of the "few" but in the hands of "the many"

(In ancient greek demos means people and -cracy--->kratos means state. Some told Ziskar that it ha s nothing to do with the European Union, SINCE CITIZENS DO NOT VOTE. THE MEMBER-STATES VOTE INSTEAD.

NO I do not want this kind of Europe
NO we do not want a federation of geverments
NO the power should not be only in the hands of the goverment

However I say yes to Europe
YES to the Europe of the PEOPLES
YES to the Europe of social justice

[Playbahnosh]

I voted NO, an I have my reason! :ranting:

As you probably know by now, I live in Hungary. We joined EU a couple of years ago, and things are just getting worse for *us*. With us, I mean we, common people. <_<
I make it sense: (Please read THIS! PLEASE! IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO ME!)

Before we joined EU, Hungary had a hell of an economic. Now things are not berret, but far worse then ever! Our doctors, scientists and other important people are flowing abroad to work becouse they get 3x-4x more salary then here! <_< Our healthcare system is a failure, doctors are overworked and underpayed, the hospitals are understaffed and underfinanced. Our police is getting corrupt and the presence of underworld is increasing. I fear to go out to the streets at night! :crazy:

Most people think of Hungary as an ex-fashist, ex-communist, ex-socialist country with no proper government, and think of Hungarians as racists, fashists, gangsters and low-lifes! I read it all over the internet, see it on TV and hear it from foreign friends... <_<

There is no work! Unemployment is skyrocketing, companies closing down workplaces, the prizes going up, and there is no hope of improvement.

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE IS HUNGARY? Can you point it on a map? Guess few of you can...

Anyway, If I ever finish the university, wich seems impossible becouse of high corruption and selfishness in the educational system, I wont have any work!

And all this becouse EU... We export gain, and import pain....

I'M DOOMED!

Now tell me your opinion on this one...

(I'm not spreading pessimist thoughts, but things are THIS bad here. Please don't blame me for this... )

[A. J. Raffles]

Originally posted by Playbahnosh@Jun 6 2005, 08:43 PM
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE IS HUNGARY? Can you point it on a map? Guess few of you can...

Cheer up, I can. I went there on holiday a couple of years ago and everybody seemed dead keen on joining the EU. But that was before Hungary actually DID join the EU, of course...

[BeefontheBone]

I can too - I went to a nifty festival (the Sziget festival) in Budapest a few years back, it was on an island in the middle of the Danube. I drank lots of Lipton iced tea, which just doesn't work in a British climate but is great in southern Europe. But that's a bit off topic.

I'm generally in favour of closer ties with Europe, and certainly joining the single currency if the conditions are right (agreeing with Gordon here for a change) but it's an incredibly complicated issue and I don't think I'm very well informed about it to be honest.

[Tulac]

Originally posted by Playbahnosh@Jun 6 2005, 09:43 PM
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE IS HUNGARY? Can you point it on a map? Guess few of you can...

Hi neighbour
We went to Hungary's shopping malls a lot 5-6 years ago, but now we have cheaper prices here, that might have to do something with EU too...

[Sebatianos]

Originally posted by Playbahnosh@Jun 6 2005, 10:43 PM
...I make it sense: (Please read THIS! PLEASE! IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO ME!)...

Of course I know where Hungary is (just half an hour drive from where I'm sitting right now).

Look Slovenia joine the EU on the same day (1st of May last year). And we have many similar problems. It's got nothing to do with the EU. It's the legacy we all got from the old communist system. One of our humorists said it best:

We got rid of the old communist values instead of the converted old communists.

The main problem is this - in communism they wanted everything to apeare perfect for the workig class, so things like medical care were supported (Even if most of it didn't work like it should have). Now the system is basically the same and none of the thing work, but because they are there you need to pay for them!
Before they wanted people to be employed even if they had to build a useless factory that produced nothing but loss. Now they just can't do that any more, because they can't maintain the high costs of that.
Communism had many flaws, but the system all the ex-communist countries got now isn't much better. Many people expected the EU to be the solution to this - I guess many actually felt that they'd live off the charity - but that's not so.
EU didn't worsen the situation in Hungary - but because thre are many countries in such a bad situation the economical growth is put to a hold. It's a world wide phenomena. And becuase the once 'rich' EU countries are barely handeling their own problems at the moment the once 'poor' countries that just recently joined the EU are very disapointed with the union.

[Playbahnosh]

I agree your point Sebatianos...

But the thing is, EU benefits more from all this than we are. All our experienced doctors, scientists, inventors and other important people going abroad to work. That IS BECAUSE EU, becouse the restriction to work abroad is no more since we joined. There are no visa requirements and such, so we are loosing all our great intellects. They are taking the money abroad, their intellects and all. Our country IS falling apart, and nobody does NOTHING about it!
Now that's sad!
The other (somewhat greedy) EU countries refuse to lend us any money, an withot it, we are doomed! I know EU is not charity, but we are suffering here! IN THE VERY CENTER OF EUROPE!! HELLO! Knock, knock! Just try to see farther then your own wallet, please!

[Tulac]

Originally posted by Playbahnosh@Jun 6 2005, 10:22 PM
I agree your point Sebatianos...

But the thing is, EU benefits more from all this than we are. All our experienced doctors, scientists, inventors and other important people going abroad to work. That IS BECAUSE EU, becouse the restriction to work abroad is no more since we joined. There are no visa requirements and such, so we are loosing all our great intellects. They are taking the money abroad, their intellects and all. Our country IS falling apart, and nobody does NOTHING about it!
Now that's sad!
The other (somewhat greedy) EU countries refuse to lend us any money, an withot it, we are doomed! I know EU is not charity, but we are suffering here! IN THE VERY CENTER OF EUROPE!! HELLO! Knock, knock! Just try to see farther then your own wallet, please!

Yet the westerners see it the other way around, they think our cheap workforce is taking away their jobs, the problem with EU is that you can't have so many equal laws and measures for so many different and unequal countries...

[Playbahnosh]

The westerners are partly right. Our people are FORCED to work for almost free...
They need every coin they can get, and sorry for us, they get almost nothing for a hard days work here... Or not enough to live a livable life that is...
And the lowest western pay is higher than the average salary here, so our people go abroad to work becouse they get more money... hence the westerns see it, they are cheap workers according to their standards <_<

The worst thing of all, there are eastern countries from here as well, and for them WE ARE THE WESTERNS! and this all goes in circles...