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[plix]

Originally posted by Chuck the plant@Mar 19 2006, 07:59 PM
A game is a product. Like a car. Like a computer. Using a product without paying for it is stealing. Period. I really don't care if it "feels like stealing" to you or not, and neither would any judge.

No, it's not. You keep trying refuting arguments with false analogies and then trying to back them up with incorrect applications of the law. Copyright infringement is not theft. This is a very well-defined truth legally. Copyright infringement is a civil matter and theft is a criminal one. If I were to steal a car I would be depriving the rightful owner of it's use whereas if I were to download a warezed copy of a game I would not be depriving the owner of it's use, sale, possession, or otherwise. Hell, you can't even say that both have the same fiscal impact -- it is quite possible (note that I'm most certainly not trying to generalize this case to a universal truth) that someone guilty of copyright infringement would not have purchased said game in the first place.

Originally posted by Chuck the plant
On that very topic: Since there weren't any copyright laws, it really makes one wonder about the HUGE ammount of great and well known art from communist countries, does it not?* LOL

You're returing to an extremely bigoted -- and incorrect -- argument. For someone who has been attempting to universalize his morals you might want to step back and take a look at what kind of culturally intolerant filth you've been spewing.

You say that no communists were responsible for great art? What about Marx? Leon Trotsky? Leo Tolstoy? I'm just listing authors I know off-hand (I'm not big on art, so I don't know the names of any well-known Russian/eastern-European artists) -- I'm quite sure that others around here could flesh out this list significantly.

[a1s]

Originally posted by Chuck the plant+Mar 20 2006, 03:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chuck the plant @ Mar 20 2006, 03:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Excuse me? Was I the one who used the former political system as an excuse? Was I the one that started to use the social surroundings of some people as an excuse? I don't think so.[/b]

I suppose you've never gone to kindergarten? otherwis you'd know- it does not matter who 'started it', just who was involved.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chuck the plant@Mar 20 2006, 03:59 AM
On that very topic: Since there weren't any copyright laws, it really makes one wonder about the HUGE ammount of great and well known art from communist countries, does it not?* LOL[/quote]
That was due to the fact that they were socialist, not comunist (soviets were suposed to become comunist by the end of 80s, instead they went out of buisiness ). USSR, remeber?

[Playbahnosh]

Originally posted by Chuck
especially when coming from someone who basically doesn't mind stealing and benefitting without contributing...

Dude, you are going off track... If you analogy don't work you start dissing people? well done! I didn't contribute? Well let's see: 17 songs, 6 visual art, 3 little games, 14 reviews, 2 novells, 5 trainers and uncountable forum posts helping people with a problem here and on other boards, and other forms of contributing I don't list now...and all for FREE! Now let's see what did you contribute :bye:

On the other hand, plix and a1s said it all k:

[troop18546]

Originally posted by Playbahnosh@Mar 20 2006, 11:52 AM
plix and a1s said it all k:

Totally. :whistle:

[Chuck the plant]

Originally posted by plix@Mar 20 2006, 07:10 AM
No, it's not. You keep trying refuting arguments with false analogies and then trying to back them up with incorrect applications of the law. Copyright infringement is not theft. This is a very well-defined truth legally. Copyright infringement is a civil matter and theft is a criminal one.

Wrong, dude. At least here in germany, a few years ago the law actually has been changed to make it a crime. You can get up to five years in jail for it. D'uh. And maybe that will happen in other countries as well soon. I'd only like to know if you would still argue in favour of "the law" then (something you even NOW only do, when it benefits your side of the arguement... if it doesn't, then all of a sudden "the law" just seems to be an arbitrary piece of BS... how totally "un-universalizing moral values" of you...).

Granted, the final outcome of stealing a car and stealing intellectual property is not TOTALLY the same. Still taking advantage of somebodie's work without compensating them can in NO way be declared "morally correct".

And if some people would not have bought the software, anyway: Why do they feel the need to copy it illegally then, anyway? As I said, either you want it, or you don't. If you don't, why still get it? Just because you can?

@ Playbahnosh

As you can see, the analogy DOES work.

I didn't contribute? Well let's see: 17 songs, 6 visual art, 3 little games, 14 reviews, 2 novells, 5 trainers and uncountable forum posts helping people with a problem here and on other boards, and other forms of contributing I don't list now...and all for FREE!

That will totally compensate games developers for the cash they get denied (and which they generally had to invest first), I'm sure... talking about flawed comparisions here...

Cracking and Warez brought down more than one games-company and sometimes even whole gaming-platforms. I guess that's all fair and square to you all as well. And that's why I don't see any further need to discuss this matter.

[Tulac]

Originally posted by Chuck the plant@Mar 20 2006, 07:46 PM
Cracking and Warez brought down more than one games-company and sometimes even whole gaming-platforms.

This is entirely false, because all of the companies have to cope with their products being pirated, so piracy can not be an excuse for a company going down the drain, again read the first link on the topic for an example...

[Rogue]

Developers avoided Amiga, Amiga CD32, Sega Dreamcast, Sega MegaCD because of no or low antipiracy options. In the end all of those consoles/computers died.

None of my consoles is moded, and moded is unlawful here, but it does not seem to be unlawfull in Bosnia... where you can buy above example (Photoshop) for 5 CM (2.5 Euros)

[Tulac]

Originally posted by Anubis@Mar 20 2006, 08:51 PM
Developers avoided Amiga, Amiga CD32, Sega Dreamcast, Sega MegaCD because of no or low antipiracy options.

No the CEO's used that as an excuse because their product was badly advertised or in other way defeated by the competition...

I mean on the other hand they say the biggest reason for the playstation console being so popular is being easy on piracy, after all, that did encourage better sales of the console and in the end everyone who buys pirated games will buy an original or two...

And how come playstation was so much more of a success than N64 which was impossible to pirate?

[Rogue]

It all depends on what marked are you talking about.

Here N64 was well sucesfull console. Used N64 games still sell, as well some Dreamcast games (mostly sports titles). There is no Mega CD and very rare you can find MegaDrive games.

Sonly PS games also had sucessful sales, but not all of them. Sony console had quantity over quality thing, and there is usually one out of 10 games that is worth some time.

Here you can't find that many moded consoles and NGC still sells, as well PS2 and XBox. From what I see, games sell well at 40-30 bucks, and greatest hit titles sell for 15-20 bucks.

It is well known that many developers discontinued Dreamcast because of Sega's incapability to disable copying of the games. Release of PS2 lead to lower console sales, and already hit by the lower number of develpers, Sega had no other option but to stop console department. For those who don't know, you don't have to mod DreamCast. Most today's CDRoms are capable to copy DC games at 1x - 4x speed.

[a1s]

Originally posted by Chuck the plant@Mar 20 2006, 08:46 PM
As I said, either you want it, or you don't. If you don't, why still get it? Just because you can?

that actualy isn't a black and white question, lke you put it. aswer the following:

a)do you want a brand new Ferrari?

b)It's offcourse a completely free gift, want it now?

c) allthough you'll have to give me 2 thousand dollars for this graeat oppportuinty, still inetersted?

d)... each month, for the rest of your life. will you sign?

unless you are an idiot (which you are not) or plan to rip the seller off, you would probably only agree to some of these and not the others. It's supply and demand.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, I'm not routing for piracy (I use paint, and the only reason I had to install AutoCad (30-day trial, BTW) was because my good friend was using it for level design), just apropriate pricing. and the fact that there is no way I'll eve by those things (ferraris are overpriced )