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Old 17-07-2005, 01:06 AM   #81
Borodin
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I'm sorry if i seemed quite "tough" in my statement, but it's caused by my english limits and a seriuos discussion is too much for my basic english...

Not to worry.

I can tell you that this is not true (i'm christian and i know what i belive): we are definitely not separate from God! "If two of more are praying me togheter i'll be within them" Christ said (well this should be the english translation, if i'm right), so i've to trust that God is here, with us, and sometimes we can feel Him...

Different kind of thing. I'm discussing becoming literally one with one's deity; you're discussing having the deity move through you. Judeo-Christian monotheism admits that one's deity moves through one, but you never become one with your deity. In the Judeo-Christian heaven, you "approach the throne of god," but you never actually become one with that which sits upon the throne.

Think about a poor african boy that can't change and improve himself because of where he was born: he can only go on with his ignorance and static traditions, so will he be destinated to fail his life?

But who says he must go on in ignorance? What of the incredible richness of his natural culture? The complexities of his human or social culture? The spiritual culture of the shamans? The ability to transcend oneself is inherent in our natures; and I think our early teachers have to stop us from always being interested in learning, in growing--for otherwise, we would not so easily fit within the little world our leaders would like us to occupy.
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Old 17-07-2005, 06:41 AM   #82
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I don't know if this is what you want but this is my opinion on all this. What I believe is that life has a cycle. In simpler words there is rebirth. When you die you born again but let's say you were a human in this life and did many bad things(sins) you would be reborn as an animal,disabled etc(depends on how bad your sins were(exampler murder). You always have to repay for your sins if you did soemthing bad in this life you would get it back this life or your next life. Let's say you were a good person in this life then in your next birth you would be rich and would have luxury etc(depends how good your good things are for example donating lot of money to poor childern). The only way you can stop this cycle is if you are superior(not meaning having powers like superman) in mind. If you can understand that jealousy, stealing,murdering,been greedy would lead no where and having life over and over leads no where at all. If your mind is in this level you are considered as enlightened. Meditation is the key. Let's say you are enlightened and then died then you would never been born again and would live in peace(this doesn't include goingto heaven and all those things that are in fairy tales) it is like somewhat a1s explained. It is like peaceful sleep and you would never wake up again. Ok now that's what I believe and remeber I'm a normal person and been enlightened is by NO MEANS easy.
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Old 17-07-2005, 12:33 PM   #83
efthimios
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sameeralord@Jul 17 2005, 05:41 AM
I don't know if this is what you want but this is my opinion on all this. What I believe is that life has a cycle. In simpler words there is rebirth. When you die you born again but let's say you were a human in this life and did many bad things(sins) you would be reborn as an animal,disabled etc(depends on how bad your sins were(exampler murder). You always have to repay for your sins if you did soemthing bad in this life you would get it back this life or your next life. Let's say you were a good person in this life then in your next birth you would be rich and would have luxury etc(depends how good your good things are for example donating lot of money to poor childern). The only way you can stop this cycle is if you are superior(not meaning having powers like superman) in mind. If you can understand that jealousy, stealing,murdering,been greedy would lead no where and having life over and over leads no where at all. If your mind is in this level you are considered as enlightened. Meditation is the key. Let's say you are enlightened and then died then you would never been born again and would live in peace(this doesn't include goingto heaven and all those things that are in fairy tales) it is like somewhat a1s explained. It is like peaceful sleep and you would never wake up again. Ok now that's what I believe and remeber I'm a normal person and been enlightened is by NO MEANS easy.
But, since you would have no memories and no knowledge of that previous life, how would you be responsible for that? Why pay for something you do not know you have done?
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Old 17-07-2005, 01:50 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by efthimios@Jul 17 2005, 11:33 AM
But, since you would have no memories and no knowledge of that previous life, how would you be responsible for that? Why pay for something you do not know you have done?
Ok why are there poor people and rich people in this world. So if they is no rebirth and we only have one life why do some people in this world are happy and some people are sad why are some people disabled. How come everyone doesn't born as equal.It depends what you did in your previous life good or bad. No one is going come and tell you you did that and that in your previous life if you did something bad or good in your previous life you would get it some point of your life cycle.
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Old 17-07-2005, 02:59 PM   #85
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Quote:
Ok why are there poor people and rich people in this world. So if they is no rebirth and we only have one life why do some people in this world are happy and some people are sad why are some people disabled. How come everyone doesn't born as equal.
I guess you don't believe in some luck...
You're saying that if what you believe isn't true, the world would be fair.

EDIT: We should remain on topic (it is about heaven and hell after all). Sorry for this post.
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Old 17-07-2005, 03:59 PM   #86
efthimios
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sameeralord+Jul 17 2005, 12:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sameeralord @ Jul 17 2005, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-efthimios@Jul 17 2005, 11:33 AM
But, since you would have no memories and no knowledge of that previous life, how would you be responsible for that? Why pay for something you do not know you have done?
Ok why are there poor people and rich people in this world. So if they is no rebirth and we only have one life why do some people in this world are happy and some people are sad why are some people disabled. How come everyone doesn't born as equal.It depends what you did in your previous life good or bad. No one is going come and tell you you did that and that in your previous life if you did something bad or good in your previous life you would get it some point of your life cycle. [/b][/quote]
Why isn't everyone born equal? I guess you mean like having money, well build body, clever etc? Because if everyone was we would all be robots from an assembly line. Some people get rich by thinking and doing something others haven't before them, others because their forefathers did, others because they steal, others because they exploit other humans, others because they win the money in lotter, others because they use their brain and are not afraid to experiment, with some luck, presto! money!

As for physicaly different, you might want to check some biology as a first step, then genes etc.

I seriously do not like the idea of anyone being rich because they deserve it according to what they (supposedetly sp?) did in their previous life. It sure sounds like something it could be used to suppress the people not wanting more than they have because "they deserve" what they have according to what they did in their previous life. This sounds like pure expoitational ideas from some who want the people to shut up and not question their authority.

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Old 17-07-2005, 04:52 PM   #87
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actually within the boundries of reincarnation and karma it doesnt quite work like that. good karma from a previos life could actually lead you to lead the life of a contented peasent farmer with a good wife and loving children. all rebirths are a part of the individual souls reach for eventual enlightenment. good karma could lead you to be born to rich parents
but then if you were to generate good karma from that life it could actually be harder, due to the fact that it easier for the rich to get Extreme gambling, alcahol, drug issues, ect from earlier in there life. so being born rich can hamper your karma. then again within that life you also have the chance to be a philanthropist. a life as a rich person with abusive parents would be a lot worst than that of a poor person from a loving family.
karma means there is no escape from your actions even in death. but you can tip the blance if you are diligent. there is no *redemption* with karma.
i have heard a lot of people over the years spout some proper b's about karma.

1: "disabled people had bad karma in a previos life"
wrong! a person who is born disabled has a greater set of challanges ahead of them, especially in a third world country. the good karma they are going to generate for that lifetime makes the karma of a rich person who donates to charity seem insignificant
(indded with the tax bonuses it is actually in the riches benifit to donate)

2: "rich people have had good karma"
wrong! a lot of rich people go through miserable lifes. and with there resources they can potentially do a lot more hurt than most. money leads to power, power corrupts corruption = bad karma

3:a buhhdist or hindu gets better karma than a christian
wrong! according to there own wrtings karma is universal and the same for all creatures. a wild dog who gets enraged by a child but sees it is no threat and stops itsefl gets good karma, the dog that savages it gets bad. a chrisitan preist who brings a feeling of hope to his congregation gets good karma. a buhdist monk who uses his religion to feel supirior to others gets bad
on the path to enlightment a soul will have reincarnated as a preist of evry religion

4: "so i murder loads of babies but i die, so i wont remeber it in my future life so the punisment lifes wont affect me"
hahaha.
there are worst things than being human. and when you are reborn as a human your previos memory is fragmented by the process of childhood and our extremely complex neuro chemicular development.
there are also other levels of reality.
maybe you will come back as a hungry ghost, completly aware of your previos life and filled with the need to kill babys still, but killing them will no longer bring you satisfaction. and this will go on for a very long time as well. maybe a thoasand years.
or maybe you will come back as a battery hen, but as its punishment you will be aware

5: "karma takes away my freedom of choice"
you couldent be more wrong oh multitude. it can determine the parents you are born to but..
like you already had a choice over that.. a rich man can become poor. a poor man can become rich. that is choice. a poor man could transcend while a rich man falls. it is the way of it. even in death there is choice.

peace k:
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Old 19-07-2005, 09:52 PM   #88
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Ok getting onto topic again...

I am not Catholic but I am a Christian (is it meant to be capitalised?).

Just for a moment imagine the most intense love you have ever felt for any person you have ever loved. I am not talking about lust for a person when you want to get into a sexual relationship! I am talking about love that knocks you off your feet with the sheer weight of it. Love that makes you feel like you are walking on air just being with that person.
Well take that kind of love and imagine it doubling in intensity every day for eternity and you may begin to understand the beginning of the bliss that awaits in heaven.

Biblically speaking (though I am no scholar) heaven is a place where God (Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit) reigns. It is a spiritual realm and is filled with love. It is georgeous beyond your wildest imagination. Take a trip to a place in nature that takes your breath away and you'll begin to understand how beautiful it is. For a while the people who get there will spend time there but eventually Jesus will return to earth, finish off evil once and for all and God will recreate the earth as it was in the beginning before sin came about. Then we will live and walk and talk with God as Adam and Eve did in Eden and we will be fulfilled for eternity.

Maybe sounds like a piece of fiction but I sure pray that as you read this it stirred something in you. Maybe butterflies, goose bumps or intellectual ascent. Whatever it is I hope to have gotten the point across.

Have an awesome day!
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Old 19-07-2005, 10:03 PM   #89
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Why you want know how is the heaven..? :crazy:
Dont fear you destiny, dont fear your death..
Just love your life and love the peoples that you like... k:


"The heaven is a long night of sleep, where you never wake up." :angel:
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Old 19-07-2005, 10:50 PM   #90
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how is it off topic to discuss karma and rebirth? some of us belive in that instead of heaven and hell. and its a view that has been around scince christians were hitting each other with rocks ie: long before christ even got round to being born. and as has been made clear by the people who actually know the bible here is that heaven is a load of catholic dogma, you may as well be krishna freaks if you want an eternall paradise.
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