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[Smiling Spectre]

I mostly agree with Scatty, but I want to add.

Originally Posted by Philos73

The next thing that I suspected is that having the Creative DOS-Drivers installed might actually conflict with the game sound-settings. I think the game uses it's own sound drivers (not sure though). So having sound settings in the Autoexec.bat might actually cause problems. I now put "REM" in front of those two lines with the Soundsettings in the autoexec.bat. Also I suspect that these soundsetting might be another reason for why DOS7 crashed when trying to change settings with the install.exe again. I did not get that "insufficient-memory" error any more when setting up the game without sound this time - even though I still only have 579 KB of free conventional memory.

1. Of course, you get rid of memory problem - you completely disabled sound system, so requirements are lessen. But it still could rise later, so I still suggest to free memory.

2. If you disabled SB-drivers, you must receive more memory. As it is not a case, I suspect, you simply didn't anything meaningful.

If you want to use SB128 (hey, it is my old soundcard! , you need to tune it with setup. After that you must receive two lines in autoexec: one is set system variables (SET BLASTER is it) - it didn't anything by itself, it is only point system, where you card is. Second (I suspect, it must be named SBINIT.COM) initialized card itself, and without it card will not work.

Regarding your hints about moving stuff to higher memory by activating EMS plus RAM plus Highscan and using Loadhigh and Divicehigh - I've already done all of that.

It could be not enough. Some programs will conflict and will not go in upper memory with simple adding "loadhigh". So I again recommend MEMMAKER.EXE. It will check everything and rearrange programs to fit in the upper memory perfectly.

Again, check memory with mem /c/p to see what is remained in lower memory.

My old DOS-system usually had about 620Kb without sound and something like 605 after sound activating.

And I have the Device=Setver.exe (loaded high actually with memmaker) in my config.sys anyways - so trying the Himem.sys from DOS 6.0 might be an option.

Setver is not needed. It is for windows only.

Another thing to consider is whether I would have to change the interrupt settings in the BIOS as well when changeing them in the autoexec.bat. Remember that I'm also running Win98 in a separate partition on that machine. So changeing interrupts would also affect Win98 - and I might end up continuously having to change the interrupt settings when changeing between the OSes....

Interrupting not needed, as sound installer must set it itself. AFAIR, my card was on IRQ10 "in reality", but installer gave it IRQ5, and everything worked. But I could be wrong, so you can still need to fiddle with BIOS. Anyway, it is for DOS only - Win98 will tune itself for new IRQ automatically.

---update---
Checked my old SB128 drivers. Actually, there is four lines for autoexec:

SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 P330 T6
SET SBPCI=C:\DOSDRV
C:\DOSDRV\SBLOAD
C:\DOSDRV\SBINIT.COM

First two setup variables, second pair loads drivers and initialize card.

Hello guys,

first of all I have been playing the game without sound yesterday and today. No problems with that configuration. That at least works - and getting the game to run at all was the higher priority of course. Sound is a bit of a luxury question but I will check a few things out.

@The Fifth Horsemen: Never thought about using loadhigh outside of the autoexec.bat. So it can be used just like every other DOS command - sort of like "LH C:\MoM\magic.exe"? If that would really load the game into upper memory that would certainly end all probs with not having enough conventional RAM.

Regarding setver.exe: No, that has nothing to do with Windows. DOS checks for the version info of DOS programs/libraries and rejects them if they belong to another version of MSDOS. But sometimes they can be made to work using setver.exe. Because DOS7 is lacking quite a few components I took them from other DOS versions - mainly DOS 6.22 but also some from even earlier versions. And I need setver.exe for those components. OTOH using a different Himem.sys would have a downside. In that case setver.exe would have to be executed *before* Himem.sys gets executed - then setver.exe could not be loaded high, thus consuming conventional memory. So that's not a good approach. Loading the game itself high as The Fifth Horseman suggested would be an interesting option if it works.

@Smiling Spectre: Your info about sbload.exe and sbinit.com is the best clue so far! I have three different Soundblaster 128 PCI cards actually. There were also different drivers for these (Soundblaster 128 PCI was a family of soundcards, not just a single model). But non of the DOS-installers of these drivers ever put those two lines regarding sbload.exe and sbinit.com into the autoexec.bat!! That might actually be what is missing!!

So I will have to try to install the sounddriver with those additional lines and then have to use memmaker again to load high sbload.exe and sbinit.com as well. I do have those two files in the dosdriver folder of the soundcard. Just never realized I needed extra lines in the autoexec.bat to load them. Will keep me busy for a while to check all that out...

Btw I already used memmaker for loading things into higher memory even prior to posting here (had to do it for Master of Orion quite a while back).

Regarding the game itself:

This is a bit like when I started to play Age of Wonders way back when! I just love Age of Wonders but I've played it too much; so I was looking for something else that comes close to it. Seeing what MoM looks like, I now realize that Age of Wonders is heavily based on MoM in a lot of ways (MoM is the older game). MoM has something from a lot of games I have played (Civ1, MOO, AoW). There is no tactical combat in Civ1 and I really love tactical combat but a lot of games have a screwed-up tactical combat. In MoM it's well done though - that definitely is one of the strong sides of the game.

What I would love is a complete list of all the creatures in the game - their abilities and maybe some comments about them. Neither the Spellbook nor the Manual give much information about the many creatures in the game. The "complete Strategy guide" mentions some of them but by far not all of them. If any of you have ever seen something like that (list of all MoM creatures and their attributes) on the web please give me a link for it.

Another thing that would be neat would be a more comprehensive review of the spells. The spellbook lists them in alphabetical order - but for memorizing them a list that sorts them by type of magic would be better - possibly with some extra comments. Have not found anything like that for MoM. Also there is no "Spell techtree info" - ie. what spells are required for being able to get to research the more advanced spells. For instance both in Master of Orion and in Civ when deciding which tech to research there is always a consideration about what other techs will be available after that. The MoM spell system seems to be much like the tech trees in Civ and MOO but it's not well documented where the branches of the tech-tree (aka Spell-tree) lead to.

Also if any of you know about other forums where the game is being discussed in depth that would be much apprediatied. This looks like a game I will be playing for years.

[Maestrotogo]

Go Rjak!!!

Love playing death magic...with illusion a close second...I miss Microprose...

Originally Posted by Philos73

Also there is no "Spell techtree info" - ie. what spells are required for being able to get to research the more advanced spells. For instance both in Master of Orion and in Civ when deciding which tech to research there is always a consideration about what other techs will be available after that. The MoM spell system seems to be much like the tech trees in Civ and MOO but it's not well documented where the branches of the tech-tree (aka Spell-tree) lead to.

There reason there is no mention of the tree is because it doesn't exist. Your spells come from your books, and they are randomly (weighted low) selected at the beginning of the game. 10 spell books means you can eventually research all spells in that school, and each new opportunity of research is randomly (weighted low) chosen. It tends to just give you better spells to choose after you've researched the lower ones; just clearing spaces on the list. There was one game I had where "Altar of Battle" became available with only two light spellbooks and 6 spells researched. Although, I thought you would have gathered all that from the manual and playing the game...

Originally Posted by Philos73

Also if any of you know about other forums where the game is being discussed in depth that would be much apprediatied.

(Read the unofficial faq if you did not do it yet.)

Forums:
You should check dragonsword.com.
Some solid info is on the gamespot forums as well.

[Pex]

I've been playing this game during the last few days and I have to say that I found it very interesting. I played it back in 90ies, but I didn't have the patch back then so the game would often crush (a couple of cases I remember were when there were a wraight or arch angel involved in the combat). It tended to be annoying especially if I forgot to save the game, so I believe I eventually gave up on playing it.

So far I finished the game at the lowest difficulty level and than the next one (easy?). In the first case it was absolutely no challenge, but in the second I actually had to load an older saved position and change a few things in order to pass that beginning stage when you are the most vulnerable. That happens to be a trait of the game at that level - you start really weak, but if you survive first 20 or so turns (and destroy the closest neighbour wizard in the process), you become soon invincible.

As for other observation, AI is decent but could've done with some improvements, both when it comes to the behaviour of enemy wizards and that of opponents during the tactical combat. In the case of wizards, they would sometimes attack me with much weaker force than mine to no obvious gain. Or they would leave me 'camping' next to their capital while I bring in enough reinfs to crush them instead of crushing the troops I have there first. As for tactical map, enemy is obviously programmed to go after missile troops first, which can be used agaist them by positioning your troops and casting a few chosen spells (earth to mud for example). I wonder if AI improves with the difficulty level, or is it just that lairs/nodes/towers/etc are defended by more units or more powerful ones.

But I guess I'm going to discover it soon, since I'm planning to try the game on some more difficult levels.

[Japo]

AI was the weak spot of Microprose strategy games, it's always very dumb, and higher difficulty levels are attained simply by granting AI opponents cheats more or less gross depending on the level.

[Borodin]

Originally Posted by Japo

AI was the weak spot of Microprose strategy games, it's always very dumb, and higher difficulty levels are attained simply by granting AI opponents cheats more or less gross depending on the level.

To be fair to Microprose, they put out incredibly complex strategy titles and didn't have the benefits of incredibly fast processing power and huge amounts of memory. Consider how dumb comparable chess games were at the time, and how much better they are, today. When the AI can process a far greater number of rules and judge possible outcomes much faster, the AI appears "smarter." That explains to an extent why Civ IV seems more intelligent than CIV I or II, despite the fact that Sid Meier was a superb AI creator.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Not only that, but Civ IV had the advantage of hindsight. It's not just how much possible outcomes the AI can analyze or how complex are the rules dictating its' behavior, but also how much data and experiments are those rules based on. With enough verification, they can be refined to be more effective and make the AI appear "smarter".

[Pex]

I agree with your points about AI. I wasn't really complaining about it - it was more of the whishful thinking It would be harsh to judge that game based on today's standards.

I beat the game on Normal difficulty level. I gave myself a slight advantage, customizing the character and selecting to by Myrrian. Since Sss'ra was not one of the opponents wizards, I had the whole world to myself for development before I came out and crushed the opposing four. I still managed to get only 26% of success, though (comparing to 19% when playing on Easy). I guess I could've waited 30 more turns to finish Spell of Mastery and see what happens, but I was powerful enough to destroy the last wizard (I was actually taking my time there), so I thought to go for it.

Do you get more points for finishing Spell of Mastery?