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[Geezer]

Nice add. Anyone interested in doing M&M 1 or 2? It will be a while before i have time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paco @ Jul 9 2007, 12:53 PM) [snapback]298628[/snapback]</div>

MM3 have one? :blink: [/b]

Yes, it has one. I wouldn't ask if it didn't, don't you think?

Also, please no offence, but you could use some English grammar classes.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(_r.u.s.s. @ Jul 9 2007, 12:55 PM) [snapback]298630[/snapback]</div>

run mm3crk.exe, not mm3.exe
[/b]

Oh. <_< It still asks you a word from manual, but you can type just about anything. Thank you.

[kmonster]

Some starting tips:

Although the pregenerated party is playable I recommend to create your own party or at least trading the paladin or knight for a ranger or druid for being able to learn the natural spells. Replacing the pregenerated gnome robber with a dwarf robber will yield +5 thievery and +2HP/level without disadvantadge.

A good party should contain:

1 barbarian for fighting (far superior to the knight although the manual suggests otherwise)
1 robber or ninja for thieving (dwarf)
1 sorcerer or archer for arcane magic
1 druid or ranger for natural magic
1 cleric or paladin for clerical magic
1 other character of your choice

It's also nice if you have at least one knight or paladin for being able to use all equipment in the party.

Mixed casters can cast the same spells as pure casters but they only get half as many spellpoints and have to pay the double price for learning those spells in the guilds.
In exchange they get 3 extra HP/level, the ability to use more armor/weapons(including ranged) and an extra attack every 6 instead of 7(cl,dr) or 8(sorc) levels.

On the long run it's best if speed and luck are very high at creation, the other stats can be raised more easily.

A very nice resource of information regarding this game is http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/pc/mm3

Neat. I've been looking for this one ..

And got a question. I can absolutely not figure out how to trade items between party members...
It was possible in Might and Magic II, and I'm sure it's obvious, but I can't figger it out here.

[azraelck]

Select the item you want to move, then hit F# (with the # being whichever number the character is, F1 for the first one, etc...)

A Knight can use Plate Armor, but I agree that a Barbarian's massive HP and multiple attacks gives them an advantage. I usually replace the Knight with a Paladin for extra healing. Because you never know when your Cleric will have his head smushed by an Ogre, and your Sorcerer knocked cold by a Sprite. Having some extra healing never hurts, and the Paladin is a decent fighter. Plus they can use everything as well as the Knight.

The Druid is pointless, because most of the Druid spell book is easily covered by a Cleric and Sorcerer. A Ranger would do here, and give you Pathfinding for free at level 1, plus giving you a fair fighter.

My preferred party is Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Robber, Cleric, Sorcerer. Alternately, trade the Paladin for an Archer for extra offensive magic and a utility caster (keeping your Sorc's SP for the all-important Implosion). this hurts your non-magical combat abilities though. The ninja usually lags behind in thievery (with no significant advantage in combat), so I go with the Robber. The Ranger provides Walk on Water.

If I intend to use Hirelings, the Ranger gets dumped for an Archer, and I use Allan Bow (lvl 3 Archer) from Fountain Head and the Elven Ranger from Wildabar Caverns as my hirelings. The Archers provide more Lloyd's Beacon spells; and utility and offensive power. The ranger deals with what little Druidic spells are needed. The rest remain the same.

A quick and dirty way to start is to go to the portal and type in Doe Meister (or miester, whichever works) to get 2 million gold. Use Mr Wizard to return to town, go back and type Orb Meister to get two quest items. Mr wizard again, then save, and go to Red Hot. Enter the inn, pick up the two high-level hirelings, use them to clear a path to the shop; buy some better weapons and armor, strip them, and use the sorcerer's Lloyd's Beacon to return to Fountain Head. Dump them, you'll have fair (not good, but fair) equipment, plenty of gold, two items that very shortly will net you a lot of experience, and the money to keep your hirelings happy. Afterwards, clear out to Bay Watch and get the mountaineering and path finding skills; and use wizard's Eye to search the mountains around the western isles. DO NOT FIGHT ANYTHING YET! You'll get a few spells; and a bunch of items (which may or may not be good) as well as more gold. Go ahead and clear area A1 (around Fountain Head) as the woods there has a few spells as well.

[kmonster]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(azraelck @ Jul 10 2007, 02:19 AM) [snapback]298724[/snapback]</div>

The Druid is pointless, because most of the Druid spell book is easily covered by a Cleric and Sorcerer. A Ranger would do here, and give you Pathfinding for free at level 1, plus giving you a fair fighter.

My preferred party is Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Robber, Cleric, Sorcerer. Alternately, trade the Paladin for an Archer for extra offensive magic and a utility caster (keeping your Sorc's SP for the all-important Implosion). this hurts your non-magical combat abilities though. The ninja usually lags behind in thievery (with no significant advantage in combat), so I go with the Robber. The Ranger provides Walk on Water.
[/b]

Druids are not pointless, the decision druid or ranger is imho an even one. The advantadge mixed casters have over pure casters in dealing out physical damage is very little compared to the gap between mixed caster and barbarian, the ability to use bows and slings is the biggest advantadge.
A druid advantadge is that there's a shrine near fountain head where druids can get all stats which are lower than 25 raised by 10 for some gems, which imho makes the decision druid/ranger as even as paladin/cleric or sorcerer/archer.

The ninja has a very significant advantadge in offensive combat over the robber, he gets an extra attack per round every 5 (like a knight) instead of 6 (like a paladin) levels.
The less barbarians/knights are in the party, the more important this gets.
The ninja has also the advantadge of being able to use the weapons barbarian/ranger/archer can't use which gets extremely useful in a party without paladin and knight.
In your suggested party with archer instead of paladin I'd definitely pick a ninja.

An archer is good in offensive combat as a paladin btw since both get an extra attack per round every 6 levels, he just can use every weapon and armor like the paladin can. But both are much weaker than the knight/ninja who's much weaker than the barbarian.

[azraelck]

The Druid requires both PER and INT for spell points. As I generally focus all my stat increases on the primary casters, this means that my Cleric and Sorcerer lose out roughly 50% of the stat increases they need. More if I actively develop my secondary casters some (which I'll do once my primary ones are over 200 in their main casting stats). I rely on items when available for the secondaries. This means at all levels my cleric won't be able to cast Power Cure or Sparks or whatever is needed as often, nor will my Sorcerer be able to spam Fireballs and Dragon's Breath as much. 10 points in all stats ain't a lot really, when your drawing down two other casters by half.

The Ranger fulfills all the needed things a Druid offers. The Druid/Ranger spell list is split between the other two in function; they don't heal as well as a Cleric, and IIRC they have fewer and less powerful offensive magics than the Sorcerer. What the Druid offers is a few utility spells that are not really required to beat the game, but do make it easier. So a Ranger can cast those spells, and since duration is all day, it won't suffer from not being cast by a pure caster. A Druid is obviously a better caster than a Ranger, but when you already have a Cleric and a Sorcerer, the Druid's usefulness is diminished. Of course, the Ranger is obviously also able to hold their own when spells run out, and can wear down foes from a distance with a bow. They can use most weapons and armor up to Splint Mail. The Druid becomes a target once down on spell points. If you go for a party without one of the other two main casters, then the Druid is good. It no longer detracts from anything major, and can open up a slot for a Archer or Paladin.

As to the Ninja, I've found that the extra attack doesn't help all that much compared to being able to open chests. Combat isn't so spectacularly difficult that a Robber will detract from a party too much there, and being able to open chests and get the better items for everyone pushes the Robber over. The additional damage from a few good, lucky weapons found in a chest outweighs an extra attack on one character. The Ninja also can only use Ring mail, no shield, and has a limited assortment of weapons. None of which save the naginata are particularly powerful. Flamberge FTW!

Archers can't use certain weapons, shields, and only armor up to chain. Which is why I rate the Paladin slightly higher in non-magical combat. Magic, of course, evens it as the Archer gets the good stuff like Dragon Breath as well as many utility spells (saving the important points for the Sorcerer). The Paladin can use any armor, and most weapons (only the ninja-specific ones, IIRC).

There's a significant gap between the Barbarian and everyone, partly because of more attacks but also more HP and IIRC they advance like Robbers do; rapidly. I usually have the Barbarian doing twice the damage as everyone else per round, even accounting for spells like Fireball. They also have twice the HP, and in a bad adventure will be the one left to drag the others back to town.

Between pure/secondary casters, without other party considerations, it boils down to more magic vs more non-magic ability. The Ninja/Robber boils down to 1 extra attack vs better thievery. Barbarian/Knight boils down to massive damage, HP, vs better armor and broader weapon choice. The real considerations come in when you need a main healer, but also need a main offensive caster, someone to deal damage, someone to pick locks, someone to smash things, and you only have 1 slot left to fill.

Of course, it all boils down to playing style. I've ran two characters, ran one character with hirelings only, and ran no spell casters. I've also ran pure casters only, and secondary casters only. I've ran the default party, and a myriad of custom ones. Each one is a little different, but will still do the job.

[kmonster]

I agree that more natural spell spoints aren't as needed as arcane or divine ones, but I don't agree that the choice "druid or ranger" is unbalanced in favor of the ranger.

Having a druid instead of a ranger doesn't slow the the mage's or cleric's spell progression at all. You are not forced to take PER or INT raises for your druid. He'll have lots of spell points anyway.
The +10 for all stats <25 for the druid for 1000 gems can be used several times, you could use the thrones in the minotaur labyrinth which set all stats to 3 and to gain +80 levels and raise the stats afterwards all to 33 at the shrine for example.
The ranger's slightly better physical power won't help against hard enemies compared to the party level. He won't be able to scratch them in melee and will have to use spells in order to be useful, the druid is more useful in this case, fireballs and lightning bolts need a lot of spell points. (it's the same with paladin/cleric or archer/wizard)

The ninja/robber choice is also an even one. Early on the robber is better (1 extra HP/level, shield use, +15 thieving skill points, half a level higher) but later the faster attack gain gets more and more useful.
Early on the ninja might find a few chests he has trouble to open if you enter areas a bit tough for your party, but only early on. Gaining a few levels (there are wells which raise levels temporary, 1 level = 2 points) and returning should always work. You'll find items which increase the thieving skill during the game so after a short time you'll be able to open anything without trouble. Ninjas get 15 skill points less than thieves at the start, but dwarves get a +10 thieving bonus.

The weapon type is not as important as the material the weapon is made of, it's more important that you can use all the enchanted weapons you find.
I'd say if you have an archer or ranger in the party the ninja's weapon abilities are better, else the robber's.
But the ability to use certain weapon types isn by far not as important as the number of attacks you get.

PS: Robbers can't use flamberges and paladins can use alll weapons.

[azraelck]

I think you're misreading my comment. I'm not saying the druid is unbalanced against the Ranger, but that it is pointless in a party equipped with the usual Sorc/Cleric combo. With the two main casters there, the Ranger is superior because he brings the same spells that a Druid brings that are needed, without drawing off the main casters and providing a bow. I never had a problem "scratching", or rather hacking to bits, anything with a Ranger; no more than with a Paladin or Archer. Sure, they aren't as good as a Barbarian, but what is?

Robber vs Ninja, again it doesn't matter if you have 1 more attack if you cannot get to the better weapons until you come back at a later date, and open the chests when your ninja is good enough to do so. And it's not just early on either, I have ran a party with both a robber and Ninja, and throughout the ninja is not as good as the Robber, and will always run across chests that they'll not be able to open, or will trip the traps.

PS, I always use those fountains that give the level boost; in fact it is their use that has me keeping items of Lloyd's Beacons and using an Archer and a Sorcerer often enough. Especially when I use Hirelings.

In both cases, the Ninja and Druid, it's dependent on party make up. Though I feel that the Ninja only truly showed an advantage when playing with 2-3 PCs, not one; as the better attack ability was more pronounced, and the levels higher so the difference in Thievery not bothersome. The Druid only shines when there's not two other main casters sitting there needing stat boosts. Though, in a small party like before, I prefer a Paladin because I want to be able to resurrect. That is personal preference, though. In a low, caster party the Druid and Ninja shines out, with multiple casters their advantages are less pronounced.

[ScytheKnight]

Unfortunately there seems to be a problem with this build, either the version of the game itself or the crack. I'm unable to complete the Brothers quests, up to Brother Delta worked perfect but no matter how many times I speak to Delta it doesn't count me as talking to him so no Quatloo Coin and I can't then speak to Brother Zelta(Zeta? Something like that).

Although not game breaking of itself it makes me worried that other quests are broken in a similar fashion... even a small percentage of broken quests can totally ruin this classic simply because there are so MANY quests.

Spoiler Warning:

Originally posted by spoiler
If anyone else has gotten through to the Wilderbar Caverns, talker to Delta and then talked to Zeta(Zelta?) in the Arachnid Caverns fine plz tell me and I'll rule it out as a buggered save.