Starting a petition "microsoft release DOS 6.22 source code"? Maybe on abandonia.com?
 

There are some projects who want to provide an environment where you can old dos stuff on newer windows such as xp or vista. (Such as dosbox and FreeDOS...)

Those projects are good, but them are not 100 % compatible. Until now microsoft has not released any source code from DOS 6.22 so I guess it was kinda hard for those project to reverse engineer it.

I think today there is no more source code from DOS 6.22 inside Xp or Vista (since it`s based on NT and not DOS) and if there still is it can`t be much because it`s so long ago.

Microsoft shouldn`t have economy loss if them would make DOS 6.22 legal freeware and release the source code under an Open Source license. No new software is being developed or sold for DOS. Probably also not after it become Open Source. Someone who dislikes windows or microsoft would chose linux or bsd but not DOS because it`s to long not maintained.

Releasing the source code also wouldn`t hurt and it could help those third party projects to become perfect.

I don`t want people to start begging for it or flaming or bitching or whatever. Only being serious and showing their interest in it.

How to start a serious petition?

Maybe abandonia.com with over 30.000 members could be the place to start such a petition? If 30.000 would sign it (if people from other communitys also sign it) this should be enough.

not gonna happen :p
(i mean microsoft making dos open source)

I think the motto needs to be more "don`t give up before trying".

Micosoft made some Open Source short time ago, them also promised better interop and stop fighting Free Software. Some exampels
http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/default.mspx
http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/
http://blogs.msdn.com/dotnetinterop/
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/s...e/default.mspx
and google for microsoft releasing source code

So imho chances are bigger then 0 % !

I would like DOS 6.22 as GPL so other projects can "copy and paste" from it.

Of course there's always another side to consider:
Now when I'm installing MSDos 6.22 (or whatever MS Dos) I know what I'm getting.
If it becomes 'open source' you can be sure there will be lots of screwed up things in it.

Sad but true. :(

At no point the old version will get lost. No one will every force you to use any new version. If you want you can still stick to the old/normal one.

Nothing to be scared about.

Scared? Not really, no. LMAO.

But the comp problems does not come from MS Dos, but from the games/applics devs.
Lets face it, even when we were on Dos several games/applics were bugged as hell, and now you would want to adapt MS Dos to those?

The hardiest things to code are those graph card drivers, some are pretty exotic.
Nothing to see with MS Dos itself.

And MS Dos is pretty well documented afterall.

MS-DOS 6.22 is more compatible then dosbox. Dosbox does not have all details of the internals of MS-DOS 6.22. Dosbox and FreeDOS could become better if them would know it.

The simple question is, is it more easy to make an emulator for an old operating system if you know it`s source code or is it harded without the source code. And does it hurt if the source code is available for reference?

I see no disadventage for normal users if the source code would be released. (Someone could argue that crackers may find new exploits but this would be kinda stupid because the OS are not supported since many years and exploits won`t get patched so or so.)

As for closed source drivers and closed source hardware sure it would be even better if them would become Open Source also. Isn`t a bad idea to expand this petition to this requirement.

Some modern graphic cards by AMD have an Open Source graphic driver and AMD also has given out internal details about the card to make this driver even better. So in case of those very old hardware it`s just a matter of asking any details which are currently now not well known.

Hmmmm, maybe, some valid points you have there.

If a petition will impress MS is another question.
I doubt it.

A petition does not cost much money because server coast. Siging in and writing down stuff isn`t expensive. There is also no legal risk. People ask, them say yes or no or ignore it. That`s all. No curt at all.

For the site who is starting the petition it`s also a good PR. Besides that I am still meaning "try before giving up".

Some people say microsoft is evil. Microsoft is a firm who want to earn money and not a friend. But them are also not the devil. If them think it would be good PR then them are open to it. Here are a few examples where it did work:

- People started a petition that Xp reches end of life (no more security updates) soon -> now Xp is supported until 2014. (microsoft losed a bit money that way because people can save money and do not need to pay Vista, and them can buy Windows 7 then already)

- People did complain about bad interop -> microsoft helped the guys from samba (linux to windows network sharing) by giving out some documentation and samba works better now.

- People did complain that microsoft is fighting Free Software -> microsoft changed it`s policy a bit on it because them recognized that it`s better that way.

DOSBox won't benefit from it.
After all you can boot msdos 6.22 inside it if you want.

The things that are missing are probably on purpose.
You might want to spend your time informing the people of dosbox about which games don't work instead of claiming that it isn't 100 % compatible without any proof that it has something todo with the DOS emulated by dosbox. (incase you didn't know the DOS emulation is small portion of what dosbox emulates)

Why you are so sure that no one could profit from it?

All bugs I am talking about are already discussed a lot in their forums. The developers seam not to be able to fix it (don`t want to say bad things about their work, them already did great things without any support from microsoft).

In regards to that petition about extending XP life, it was actually all the complaints from companies like Dell, Best Buy etc.. that were complaining about how much customers wanted XP instead of Vista and how they were losing sales as a result of only being able to put Vista on their machines, not to mention other businesses who were rolling back their computers to XP after the initial Vista fiasco, so Microsoft finally gave in and extended that deadline.

Honestly a petition especially one that is online is definitely far less likely to even get noticed much less recognized with the potentials for abuse and multiple signings by users, its a neat idea but I doubt Microsoft would even consider it at this point in time, with all the things on their plate right now, 360, Vista, competing with google etc...

If you do feel so strongly about it DIPO, you can acctually start the pettition. It's very easy to open your very own new web site (try zoomshare or some toher extremelly easy to use tool for creating a website) and place the pettition there.

I'm sure there are some people on this forum that would join in and sign the pettition and you can also try and convince other people from other forums you visit to do so.

I don't know why you feel you must convince other people it's a good idea before you want to start a pettition.

The idea itself (even though it won't help any, because Microsoft will not take it seriously and even if they would release MSDOS - whichever version - as open source, the problems still would't be solved) is not bad, so if you are for it, start the petition. It's really easy.

Sure, I would sign a petition asking Microsoft to release the source code for DOS 6.22. But would Microsoft ever release it? I say the odds of that are about .001%, probably less. :notrust:

I am still not convinced releasing DOS whatever version as free source would help solve any kind of problem playing old games. If it would actually solve any kind of problems...

I mean, what have we been doing the last 5 years? I played all the DOS games I ever wanted to play, even those I had an extremely hard time running on native DOS machines, all because of VDMSound + XP and DOSBox.

What is there to complain about in term of availability?

Just like I'd never sign up the petition about saving XP, I won't sign whatever petition asking for DOS 6.22 to be open source. What's my business in deciding what Microsoft should do as far as their company business is concerned? None as far as I'm concerned...

Ditto. I'd rather support FreeDOS instead.

OK, I haven't much coding knowladge to begin with (my programing skills got stuck in some basic elementar programs on Turbo Pascal and C64 Basic), but I'd rather support DOSBox project than freedos, but yes - I think such projects are more promising then having MS-DOS 6.22 freed (remember the problems I had with it and how I couldn't run many older games, because I would still need to slow them down... and haven't had the tools to do so, and no internet yet to download them from).

Still if people fel they want to have a petition - let them use their own iniciative, but not using the name of Abandonia. Have an independent petition and I guess if there's a post here nobody would object you trying to advertise the pettition - but don't expect our member to automatically sign it.

Please give me examples (and proof that it's related to DOS emulation part of DOSBox)

Seems that some folks don't know how is to run DOS machine...

As for DOS, if someone likes to use it, I'm sure they will find it online and try it. Original DOS disks (I have them, together with Win3.11, WFW3.11 and previous version of windows starting with Win1.0) did not do any miracle, it is still ol' hard to configure DOS, which will not run all games right away. It requires DOS knowledge of setting autoexec and config files in the order to work properly.

And Microsoft still offers DOS to IT professionals trough MSDN. (check picture) Same goes for Win3.11.

In principle, I would like to see more software released as freeware, once it is no longer commercially viable, or just due to the good will of those persons who created or own the said software.

In the case of MS-DOS, it's not something I'm looking for in particular, given the fantastic job that people are doing with regards to DosBox, VDMsound et al.

I also agree that microsoft is unlikely to listen to a petition, which is a bit unfortunate.

I would rather talk to ESA about its restrictions on abandonware, and attempt to get them to reduce such restrictions, especially for software that has been out of production for longer than a given amount of time. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of copyright law!

Unfortunately,

as times goes opposite of freeware releases will happen.

Nintendo with Virtual Console and Microsoft with their xBox Live service are proving that old games still have great commercial value, so in the future I see more of the games being protected by organizations such as ESA.

I would rather see new drivers built so DOS can use some of the newer hardware out there, so you don't have to build a whole new PC to get DOS working perfectly.

The goal of Abandonware is to protect the memory of old games, especially those gems which are still great nowaday.

Having gaming companies actually making their old games available on the general market is something which would go in that direction. It would actually be a good move for us as long as Abandonware in general is concerned. Which mean that we welcome such idea.

And let me tell you, everytime this way of thinking been mentioned, we got to see who really are here for the love of old games VS those who are here for the love of free games... :amused:

If you buying the same game over and over, as the new consoles comes call support of gaming industry, you're more then welcome to buy them.

Just out of curiosity, how many of those Virtual Consoles or xBox titles you have? Also, how many retro-pack games such as Capcom Classic Collection, Sega Genesis Collection, Namco Museum etc. do you have?

I'm all for preserving my games, but paying for the same game over and over is not that smart IMHO.

BTW, what retro machines do you own?

I do not see how this is relevent, since having games available on console should not stop us from hosting DOS games since they are not the same.

And it's completely irrevelant how many console or computers I have at home, too... :huh:

I use no virtual consoles. I might have one or two zipped on my computer, but only for archival purpose...

You're sure it is not relevant??

You are sure Sega will not ask to have Golden Axe (just example) removed, as game is now available trough VC?

The thing is that before VS and xBox live we could say that site is meant to preserve games, but what now when that game is preserved by it's owner??

And don't get me wrong (as you always do), I'm not against emulation or virtualisation, on the contrary, I support both of them. :amused:

Products they would release on a console are completely different than products they'd release on the PC. Those can't mix.

You would not be able to download them back into a computer and play those games, for example. This mean that the preservation purpose is still valid on the site.

Personally, I am very much in favour of companies keeping their products alive.

There are a couple of problems with this however.

1. Games companies, in particular those associated with the PC, are very vunerable to going out of business, which is why many smaller ones get swallowed by the big publishers.

2. Retail of classic titles should have wide availability, and should be priced fairly. I was happy to pay for sierra compilations, as you get several good games for £5-10, but I recently got stung for a copy of Final Fantasy VII, thanks to our good friends on a popular internet auction site.

I'm aware that the value of something depends on popularity and quantity, and as there are relatively few copies of ff7 around, and many bidders, the prices can get beyond original retail prices.

I've rambled a little, but to return to the original subject...

In this broadband-enabled world wide web, there is no legitimate downloading site available on which games from every era are available to download for an appropriate fee.

Music has shown us the way, legit download sites have taken off in a big way, despite the availability of free illegal downloads. People dont mind paying if they pay an appropriate price for something they want.

It is the same game, different ports. It is the same with Amiga vs. PC games. They are different, but in essential they are the same games.

Lucas Arts is rare company which went down after Amiga versions as well, no matter that Amiga computers are not on sale for last 15 or so years.

Speaking of preservation, games on this site are not meant to be preserved, but are here just for nostalgic reasons that board members can play them.

Real preservation would mean to preserve original media, floppies, CD images etc. in their original form. (no saves, no changes etc.)

SPS (Software Preservation Society) preserved most of Amiga games in their original state. How hard was to preserve those games, I believe I don't have to mention. Amiga had special flopy protection, which meant you can't even made original copy of games you own. They (SPS) made completely new image format that would preserve copy protection as well. Also they are trying to have all versions of the game, including original, budget, copilation etc.

They are working on extending their project on different formats, including IBM PC.

Note, for legal reason they are not offering any of the games on their site.

So, next time you use preservation purpose in argument, think about real preservation.

There was a TOSEC for PC games (I believe I might even have it), but I'm not sure if they update it. (Note, tosec also include cracked-hacked games) Planet emu has other tosecs, but they don't have anything of PC tosec.

:amused:

I didn't get an answer about my signature. Am I legal to quote you?? :laugh:

I understand what you mean Rogue, but it's not the same thing for Amiga games and PC games. You are pretty much comparing apples and oranges. Just like you can't compare Abandonia to console emulation, which by the way I do not support.

I could write you a 2 page long "essay" on this like I already did in the past, but I'm at the job right now. Someone else can probably explain the difference to you better than I can.

And yes, you can quote me. I don't mind. ;)

[this is a very long way of saying, "but it's kinda free anyway."]

Dude - I have recently built a PC, old-skool IDE and stuff, and tried to get Win98, Win95+Dos and Dos 6.22/7.10 to run on it.

It's a fucking nightmare, I had forgotten how slow everything was and how impatient I have become.
Not only did I have to contend with switching memories for different games, loading cd/mouse/graphics/scsi/sound drivers for each one (as they all require different ones and to get the memory free - 32Mb - was difficult at times), I had to go out and buy a whole new load of hardware.

None of the post 98 stuff really worked with earlier OS...
Then, it's locating drivers for all that new gear and getting that to work. And nothing's as simple as that - no USB (without hassle), so all on CD's, disc, network (which is hassle) or physical hard-drive to copy data.

No Wireless...

Believe me, it was a joy when I finally installed Win 3.11, so I had a decent GUI (not that Commander isn't great...) to organise my discs.

And in gaming terms - Other emulators tend to suck, as the games sucked in the first place.
I've got a megadrive and a 3DO and the PC em's are shit, imo. If Dosbox is an emulator, then it's pretty good at replicating that's out for the thing it's emulating, as it's practically the same.
Other emulators are using totally different hardware. FreeDO sucks worse than 3DO. At least you have the original gaming stuff with the console.
DosBox is pretty much designed for games...
It's way easier, more compatible and stable and less hassle than Dos.

So, seriously - Why the fuck would you want Micro$oft to release some code from some OS that we all left quite willingly for better functionality, just to try and shrink Bill's man-balls a bit?
Especially when you and I *both* know that we can get it for free, anyway.
Not that Abandonia or anyone who uses it condones that sort of behaviour, sonny jim.

His nuts are so big, we can chisel hardened pieces of excess, accidentally made (only for the sake of preserving and examining the code) software off them, and he doesn't even notice.
(ie - this is my first ever, legitimate copy of Windows, ever. And that's only cos I got it from work. Bill Gates never noticed *my* little indiscretion with his lope-de-lope, I don't think.)

Ubuntu. :D I gotta love Mark Shuttleworth. Opensource is the way forward. Who wants windows 98? Even NT was uselessium.

Not 'all' left that ol'MSDos.
It's still alive and kicking for industrial uses.
Or do you think someone gonna pay for a Windows PC when he only needs a 200-5000 lines of code to steer a small robotic device? Or a small PLC? CNC? Step motors? Whatever and whatnots.
FYI: industrial 486 mobos/PCs are also still manufactured....... and 386 chips, and 8088s... etcetera.

[Edit]
One of many:
http://www.esapcsolutions.com/indust...ards-c-45.html

Sounds like something us old-school gamers should look into, eh? Fully functional hardware from early 90's is becoming scarce.

Good point, Dos... I hadn't thought of that.
You'd only need a PCB, a few chips and CRT monitor to send control to servos and stuff.

I think I'd use Dos 7.10 if it came to industrial use, as it's fairly good and free.

I recently had to get an old Soundblaster Card for my rebuilt old PC...
I had no idea that they still made those chips.

[ed]
Cheers for the link, btw - those ATX M/b's are a lot cheaper than getting a 2nd hand one from the local computer collector's shop in town.
I paid 99pence for a PS2 mouse so I didn't have to use USB.
I wouldn't mind a motherboard with built-in USB2, so I didn't have to piss around with drivers. Besides, I need the IDE slot for the SB.

This is the only petition that matters.

Microsoft to release their source code? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
More chance of cat saying woof.

I use Dos7.10 for source code is available at sourceforge.]There are also many other projects similar style (nature).

Yes. But not in my house. It is filled with old computers that still jog (run) some are even from early 80's. My prized (valued) possestion is that of a commodore console. it was never released in my country in the 80's. Even though the C64 has cartridge (magazine) slot this machine only has cartridge slot and joystick ports (harbours) weighs about less than 1 kg. Only issue (problem) now is that D-slot joysticks are rare. It ever break and I don&ampt know what I would do.

imo a needless idea for a petition.

The guys and gals who created Freedos and/or the Dosbox achieved so much w/o this source code. And these project are getting improved as we speak.

I read this source code request-problematic often b4 regarding very different kind of programs. It is requested mostly from ppl who aren't programmers, who also aren't involved in any kind of project and who wouldn't even understand tiny bits of the source code at all. :lol:

Seriously, when you're a programmer you dislike to comb through thousands of pages of other ppl's work. You just want to do something new by yourself.

(there are always exceptions ofc)