http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/911...artoons3hz.gif

Niles... you should see a doctor...no, really <_<

The thing is this topic is something that can incite serious emotions from people. Religion is a very delicate think because everyone has an opinion about it. And you can't possible talk about it without hurting somebody's religious beliefs...

Well dude, I just wanted to tell you this, no offense :ok:

what is that supposed to mean?

No this cartoon really portraits Muslim hypocracy in the best way possible... :ok:
Really it's great!

^edited my post...

That was what I thought when I saw this.



And to Playbahnosh, you are right. When you live in a free world you are going to get your feelings hurt. The trick is to live with it. Freedom of religion begins with freedom of speech.

Well, this cartoon is slightly odd... The thing is that the person (nation, religious group) that feels deprived will always overreact at a single thing that could be offencive - but will be very offencive themselves (just compare the attitue in the USA: When a white person would be trying to find excuses for slavery - how would the black community react? If a middleaged men would comment that women should stay at home taking care of kids - how would the feminists react? And so on...). It's more or less the same.

I do however feel a certain anti-muslim attitude here... Not that I'd care (atheism has a clear privilege in this situation).

Still I find the cartoon amusing (nothing more or nothing less).

I know Muslims who live in Europe for generations (Bosnians) and who are moderate, so I guess my sentiment isn't anti-Muslim but more anti Arab, because most of the Arab countries support fanaticism, at least hidden...
And they are waaay too intolerant to have any right to object to this matter in the way they did, which the cartoon clearly shows (again I am talking about Arab countries, not all Muslim people)...

this cartoon actually makes sense...
after those cartoons were published it really showed how far the muslims are from the civilised world...they didn't even heard of freedom of speech....but that was WAAAY too stupid...why the hell should you burn an embassy for some cartoons :eeeeeh: :eeeeeh: :eeeeeh:


why didn't christians react the same when they saw Jesus in a cartoon?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("playbanosh")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Niles... you should see a doctor...no, really dry.gif

The thing is this topic is something that can incite serious emotions from people. Religion is a very delicate think because everyone has an opinion about it. And you can't possible talk about it without hurting somebody's religious beliefs...

Well dude, I just wanted to tell you this, no offense[/b][/quote]


...have you watched the news lately?

Well, it's stil a prejudice but... At least you're giving some of them the benefit of a doubt. Naturally no one has a right to protest in such a way as they did (burning down ambasies) - that's pure and simply a criminal act of agression (and the countries would have a legitimet right to delare war on them). An attack on an embasy is an attack on the sovereignity of that country.

Still the situation is slightly more complex. It's got quite a lot to do with the world devision. The reasons muslim countries (especially the Arab world) is reacting the way it is are very similar to those in newly funded European countries in the second half of the 19th century (Germany and Italy) who were protesting against the colonial supremacy of Britain and France.

Regular citizens of European countries aren't daily concerned with how much more they have then regular people in Arab countries, nor do they daily realize how much of what they have is at the expense of somebody else.

It's the deprived people that see the daily injustice in this and that's they are way more sensitive to such "sacrelidges". It's simple and easy being colturally open and tolerant- when you're well taken care off. Even the homeless bums have certain rights and can get a warm shelter and at least one warm meal a day in Europe. On the other hand poor countries (here I'm not talking about Saudi Arabia) still feel famine. If a country is at the bottom (I'm talking Somalia now) then people can't even think about some foregin country (except if they have a chance to escape there). But countries that are just getting wake feel deep injustice (that's one of the reasons there was a 100 year war between England and France - among other things - because England felt deprived).

So even now there are two sides of the medal!

That still doesn't justify their actions, taking away someone freedom...

I think we should realize that violence like that is NEVER spontanious. The people behind the attacks on the embasies where Hezbolah and Syrian secret police. The inroads the west has made in Lebanon in recend months (since the Syrian pull-out) has caused them to fight back before (bombings and murders). This was just a too good a chance to let go for them.
Not that the outrage from Muslims isn't genuin. The violence is controlled.

Like someone on another forum said, "This is not entirely the way to show that Islam is, in fact, a peacefull religion."


Sebastianos, these protest have nothing to do with poverty. The people who are protesting are not poor or underfed. You should stop seeing the world in have and have not terms, things are much more complicated then that.

That's true, but the revolts in the arabian states use religion only as a pretext! I hope you all can agree about that!

There, no one can demonstrate without governmet permission (it's not a case that in Palestine they're not demonstrating, as far as I know)... and they started to demonstrate afther months: probably many of them not even know what is Denmark...

Call me dumb, but what I really really don't get on this pic is:
Why the heck does a Jew have a swastika (dunno if it is the right word, an online dictionary gave me swastika for "Hakenkreuz", well, you know, the thing on his arm)? Isn't this totally paradox? I mean, a Jew being a Nazi?

I know this probably isn't the real point in this pic, but it really bothers me somehow :/

Many ones are sure that the head of the nazi-party was lead by jewish...

I agree that the things are very complex, but if people are contempt (and they are if they feel they have enough - or at least enough to loose) they will not be so easily provoken for such actions.

Yes, the protest were not spontanius, but you could not convince a group of average Europeans to start protesting and burning down buildings just like that (because they have enough). If however you'd use a certain moment (let's say a half drunk mass of football lovers at the moment they feel their team is being cheated out of an importaint victory) you could have them do similar things.

It's the motivating factor. The less you have to loose, the more deprived you feel, the easier you are motivated into destroying the property of the one you feel has more then yourself.

Well, that's just the point. It was made so that it would bother you!!! The graffiti done by the muslim should be highly offensive and should bother almost anybody (it has multiple targets), while on the otherhand the graffiti done by the Danish guy is a nice little peaceful man, that should not bother anyone (which is sort of hipocritical as well - having a nice little man or the founder of the religion with a national symbol on the head being turned into a bomb isn't that inocent).

Oh, and sorry for the double post.

That's not only got to do with poverty, but also with lesser education, no freedom of speecg and overall primitivism that their leaders are keeping them in...

the fact is they act like savage people...and their religion inspires them to violence ...the coran tells them to act violent...in some cases violence is beaten only with violence...
the protest should of been a legal one, not an attack on the embassy...i thing someone should grab a hose and calm them down

There goes Abandonia's embassy in Arabia!

Damn. I hope they're not going to flame the Danish and Norwegian topics on the forum... (and the Dutch as well, since Niles posted this here...) :blink:

we got capable moderators here...we're safe :D

(if not..i must gather a rescue sqad...)

That is most definately the funniest cartoon concerning this topic so far, I might mention.
If you want to see the other notorious cartoons (there seems to be some sort of cencorship on it), here they are: Danish Cartoons (Dutch site)

There was a one-hour-feature on the radio here just when I drove home a few hours ago. It was about religious muslim leaders from practically everywhere (larger feature on the Imams of the six "districts" of french muslims), who were speaking up against the violence and trying to calm the waves. One might wonder why this is not shown in the mainstream-media, I for one don't... :whistle:

Maybe beacuse it's easier to influence people to think in black and white - like Himmler perfectly shows us here - if you only show the bad side of a thing... really, who would stick to their TV for "breaking news: no violent riots in Europe" or something like that?

Another thing: As we all know by now, the "outrage" was deliberatly evoked by the danish newspaper in question when the first publishing of those pictures didn't quite cause the riot they were obviously hoping for by going directly for mulsims to comment on those pictures... shows us something about THEIR attitude as well, does it not? :not_ok:

Yes there are moderate Muslims, but they mostly live in Europe and other civilized places, the further east you go the less moderate they are...

I should make a poll 'bout this.

You do know that there were some Imams from Denmark who traveled to the Middle-East to tell the countries about the cartoons, but they also brought along some other pictures that they claimed were displayed in the danish newspaper but they werent, and these pictures were very insulting...? (the newspaper have also said that they would'nt have published the pictures if they were offered to them.)

-edited due to Sebatianos' teasing...

I should certainly hope so. If I were to go back home I'd bring tons of personal photos that I wouldn't want a newspaper to publish either.

:bleh:

ehm Seb do you remember that CD cover with "virgin" Mary and baby Jesus portiaed as a rat??? there was an outrage although no one burned down any embassy :D

What i find particullarly dirsturbing is the instigation.

fact 1: cartoons were published in September and no one was bothered by them.
fact 2: i just saw a guy from protesters saying all they are demanding is official appology from Danish prime minister - how come someone told them abotu the cartoon and not about the fact that he already appologiezed??? Instigators!
fact 3: while some i saw were funny (to me) some of the caricatures were really insulting (picturing someone's god as a dirty pig is just rude)
fact 4: a lot of muslim countries forbid mocking from other religions. Such as for example Indonesia. Censorship is very strickt on this matter and for example Life of brian form Monthy Payton was never shown there because it is considered to be offensive to Christians. is it then a surprise that they demand the same in other countries?

And to rebuke some of the stereotypes - it is not true taht the more you go to the east the more extreemist religions you will face. It is true that people in Asia are religious, yet for example majority of muslims in indonesia are not extreemists.

And it is not true that islam is violent religion. in fact it could be that it is even less violent than christianity. how is that possible? well for starters you can not just confess when you kill someone and then everything is ok. no a sin is a sin and remains a sin and if you do it you go to hell. no money, no prayer can make it go away. while in christianity this is not the case. example if you are religious, you can steal and then go to confession and everything will be ok. you wont see your worst nightmare in afterlife.

yes, there are quite a few terrorist groups out there. but i don't think they are spawned by religion but by situation those people are in. illiteracy, poor living conditions, no hope of brighter tommorrow, repression, being treated as inferior etc. the list goes on.
Oh and when you think abotu the clean peacefull catholic religion, think abotu the IRA, ETA, the extremist in Corsica, Cosa Nostra and finnaly "the slaughterhosue" that happened in the Balkans.

What.... subtle... humour. The writer should really be commended for his wit.

This was in Saudi Arabian newspapers... 30th Dec 2005

http://www.adl.org/NR/rdonlyres/e5dv...abia3intro.jpg

Wowzaz. But the cartoon truly is excellent. I have a close Muslim friend, and he and I both agree we don't understand what the fuss is about.

I am not taking their side but i understand why moslims are doing this. It states in the Qoran that never should anyone personalise the prophet. That's why you don't see pictures in mosques. These cartoons are really disrespectful and humiliating for a beleiver.

And i think that christians should learn from what is happening now because christianity is being criticized daily and nobody is stepping up. It is unacceptable that in cartoons you see figures like Jesus being criticized (family guy, simpsons...).

he must be a civilised muslim with a lesser faith in the coran(a.k.a open-minded)...their belief is all about violence


so what u are suggesting is "let's go in the streets and burn the people who made those cartoons"

well my friend...it has been a long time since they burned witches at at a stake...
cartoons are not killing anyone...fire does(or any type of assault)
it's not like someone attacked a mosquee...they were just some cartoons...i don't regret the fact that they had the guts to publish them...that opened up some minds...most of them work with the same principle for centuries...but time has changed

They use religion to justify violence but their religion doesn't justify or even incite to violence.

The most violent part in the Qoran states that : you can only kill an infidel out of self defense. This is stated in every country's law books.

Plz don't be fooled by medias that only show couple of radicals pick up guns and burn ephigies

didn't see the edit till afterwars .

What i am saying that there should be more respect to religion specialy when shows have an audience that is in a 15-18 age group.

Thank you for giving a perfect example of what I meant when I was talking about "extremist bullsh*t"... :w00t:

a little question: Have any of you guys even SEEN the pictures?
I have.. and man.. they are harmless.. You should have seen the Ecce Homo-photos a few years back here in sweden... noone went and killed anyone over those..

It's all cultural differences.

I've seen em loved the ''stop we have no more virgins'' hilarious.

As stated before, any depiction of the prophet is prohibited and is considerd a direct offense to Islam.

True. But those have nohing to do with religion per se.

At least -I- have yet to see muslims rioting in the streets of Paris, London, Berlin or Barcelona...

EDIT: And christianity still has some nutjobs who blow up abortion-clinics because they are against their belief, threaten people who work there etc.

They use religion to justify violence but their religion doesn't justify or even incite to violence.

The most violent part in the Qoran states that : you can only kill an infidel out of self defense. This is stated in every country's law books.

Plz don't be fooled by medias that only show couple of radicals pick up guns and burn ephigies

didn't see the edit till afterwars .

What i am saying that there should be more respect to religion specialy when shows have an audience that is in a 15-18 age group. [/b][/quote]
umm...i'll post some parts of the coran..in romanian...maybe abi can translate them ..if not i'll try to do it tomorrow
“Dar, cand lunile sfinte au trecut, atunci luptati si omorati paganii oriunde-i veti intalni, apucati-i, impresurati-i si panditi-i in toate modurile; daca se pocaiesc, se vor ruga in mod regulat si vor face acte de caritate regulate, atunci deschideti drumul pentru ei; caci Dumnezeu este iertator si milostiv” (Sura 9:5)
Adică islamicii trebuie să ucidă pe toţi cei care nu devin musulmani.
Porunca lui Alah, porunca lui Mahomed.
This one sais that muslims must kill all who are not converting to muslim(called the pagans)


“ Luptati cu aceia care nu cred in Dumnezeu si nici in ziua de apoi si nu considera oprit, ceea ce a oprit Dumnezeu si trimisul Sau, nici nu recunosc religia adevarata, (chiar daca ei sunt) oameni ai Cartii ( crestini si evrei ), pana cand nu vor plati jizya (tributul) si se vor supune de buna voie si vor fi supusi. Iudeii il numesc pe Uzair ( Ezra ) fiu al lui Dumnezeu, iar crestinii il numesc pe Mesia fiu al Lui Dumnezeu…Blestemul Lui sa cada asupra lor” (Sura 9:29-31)
Iată respectul Islamului faţă de creştini şi iudei, dar şi faţă de atei!
Fight with those who don't believe in God and the Judgement day and don't consider stopped what God and his Chosen have stopped, or don't know the true religion, people of The Book(christians and jews), until they will pay jizya(the tribute) and obey willingly and be subduced(-).The jude call Uzair(Ezra) son of God, and the christians call Mesiah the son of God...His curse will fall on them"

“ Pedeapsa pentru acei care au pornit razboi impotriva lui Dumnezeu si profetului Sau si lupta cu putere pentru nelegiuire, este executia, crucificarea, sau taierea mainii si piciorului din partile opuse, sau exilarea. Aceasta este rusinea lor in aceasta lume si o grea pedeapsa in cea viitoare, exceptand pe aceia care se pocaiesc inainte de a intra sub puterea voastra. In acest caz stim ca Dumnezeu este iertator si plin de indurare. O, credinciosule! Fa-ti datoria fata de Dumnezeul tau. Cauta cai de a te apropria de El si lupta cu putere pentru cauza Lui pentru ca sa poti prospera. “ (Sura 5: 36-38 )
the punishment for those who have started a war aguenst God and his prophet and fight with strenght for (outlaw) is execution, crucifiction or cutting the opposite limbs or exilation.this is their disgrace in this world and a hard punishment in the next one, excepting those who (-) before entering your power.do your duty to your God.look for ways to approach him and fight with strenght for his clause sa you can prosper.

basic translation

Himmler, whatever you might find there, you'll find it just as bad - if not worse - in the bible.

P.S.: Translations of translations (of translations?) are sure to be a very reliable and firts-hand source of information... :ok:

it's not worse believe me....and it is taken from the coran...from someone who studied it :)

You mean it's not worse than the bible? LOL

I'm not surprised.

Muslims are just like anybody else. Saying Christians shouldn't stand for people mocking Jesus is foolish. It's HARMLESS. And It's free speech. What MUSLIMS should do is make a cartoon of Judas a Jesus in a homosexual encounter... that'd set Christians on fire!

And, The Qur'an is most definitely NOT all about violence. Mohammed (May peace be upon him) specifically tells people not to harm women and children, and to help others. Violence is a must in self-defense, something Mohammed recognises and Jesus does not.

then some muslims miss-interpred it...

you are right with the jessus cartoon..but i don't think they have any talent
P.S.: i didn't saw any students in the crowd...why is that

the most lame thing in the protest was one who had wrote "F#(% freedom of speech ...or something like that

Wow that's heavy. DEFINITELY people mis-interperet it. Only 1% of Muslims, or less, are that fanatically conservative.

What do you mean they don't have talent?

maybe they can't draw jesus raping a donkey cause they don't have the "training" although the cartoons were actually lacking of any quality...
some just chose the wrong handling of the situation...they could do something legally to protest to those cartoons..

Hopefully, they couldn't. It's all a big fuss over nothing. It's a cartoon. I just drew a picture of Jesus having sex with a donkey, per your example. It's easy. It's free speech, the right to say what you want

i completely agree with you...at least it gave us something to debate on LOL ...and made me realise that everybody(almost) miss-interpret a religion...even some of it's own adepts :D

...that being said... i wish you all a good night...it's 4:14 AM and i must get some sleep.
see you! :ok:

I'm on the way to work and don't have much time to reply to everything (but reading this I really should respond at this point).

This translation is nothing but bullsh*t.
Muslims have respect for other religions. Koran doesn't say kill those who do not convert to Islam. It states that all who follow God are God's people. So all who follow the book (be it Thora - Jewish, Bible - Christian, or Koran - Islam) are God's people. And they also adopted the words to Paganism, for when they encountered a cultural clash with India (when the Mogul empire was established in the Indus valley) they accepted Polytheism with written accounts as well.

And in the time when Christian Europe was burning people for being heretics (not listening to the church) Islam allowed christian churches to freely live on in the heart of their theritory.

So cut the bullsh*t about Koran telling Muslim to kill (or even allow to kill) non-Muslims.

on one of them he is portaied as a pig.

Pig is a dirty animal unholy to Muslims.

I have them all in a powerpoint presentation.

That picture was NOT displayed in the newspaper! But the Imams from Denmark brought the picture with them to the Middle-East and told the countries that the picture had been displayed in the newspaper. And I agree that the picture you are talking about is offending but if you had read the entire thread there was actually a link to the cartoons.

<!--QuoteBegin-xcom freak Feb 7 2006@ 01:59 AM
I am not taking their side but i understand why moslims are doing this. It states in the Qoran that never should anyone personalise the prophet. That's why you don't see pictures in mosques. These cartoons are really disrespectful and humiliating for a beleiver.

And i think that christians should learn from what is happening now because christianity is being criticized daily and nobody is stepping up. It is unacceptable that in cartoons you see figures like Jesus being criticized (family guy, simpsons...).[/quote]

It does not state in the Koran that you cant picture the Prophet but it do state that you arent allowed to picture Allah.