I wounder what people here in abadonia think about communist

What about them?

Difficult question.
Are we talking about real communism (like kibbutz communishm) the Soviet Union communism (aka: MUST KRUSH KAPITALIZM)

I hate the stalinistic brand which is basically a dictatorship in every way. Small scale communism has been achieved succesfully in the kibbutzim (but only small scale) and that did a lot of good and is very productive so I support that kind of communism. And then there is the salon-communism.

The modernday yuppies who have all the wealth, talking about how they should share the wealth. The ones who would be first to complain if they would have to move to a prefab home and share it with "smelly poor people" so the communist government can use they 4-story mansion as a regional HQ.
I hate those a lot, they're the yuppies that waste their time demonstrating for peace and an end to world hunger while they themselves eagerly use daddy's VISA to buy lavish gifts for themselves... smelly bastards

In conclusion its difficult to vote since there are quite a few forms of communism.

People mind is not yet on that level needed for communism to be implemented.

All examples from history where horrible, so I hate that system, but I believe idea is fine.

The idea is flawed and the execution so far is genocidal.

Communism commes from the idea that all people should be the same rather then everyone being equal.

correction: all large scale examples

He was asking about communism at level of country, not of group of people who decided to live together.

No he didn't.
In fact he didn't even ask about groups. He asked about the people following the ideology (or one of the ideologies anyway): communists.

Communes like the Kibbutz is not a fair example of communism as these are people who have chosen to live like they do. People who do not want to live there (and abide the rules that govern it) do not have to.

Communism is government type, not the way you choose to live. One of the things that communists are doing is fight for communism government type. Have people in Kibbutz done the same?

Was ex-yu communist country?

once again he was talking about communists, not statecommunism

My opinion isn't one your answers.First of all there are good and bad thinks. The good things is the organisation and the order and some others.The bad think is trying to get all the people at the equal level which is an idiot thing. M7y grand grand parents had many lands of their possesion but when the communism camed all tha whent to the country. The communism also bringed some delay into the advancing of a country. For example in my country on a communism time they weren't makink apple PC's but Pravec (which actually was stolen :angry: model). We havent got a production of Weest-European cars but only on Sovietic cars (with stolen plans too). So its difficult to make my conclusion. My grandmother told me that she prefers communism insteed of Dempcraty but I can't said because I wasn't born at the time wharn we were a communistic Country

I like communists...
Marshal Tito was a communist too...
And not all communist countries were disasters, take Cuba for example... sure theyre poor in materialistic way, but they are rich in spirit and society!!

:roflol:

Good joke Bohor! LOL

Here I met some people who escaped regime there by creating improvised boat. A lot of these who tried to escape did not survive.

Did you know that in Cuba it's against the law for people to make a big group, as they might work on the plot to get rid of Fidel Castro?

Just think about potential that Cuba has with tourism, but will never exploit it, as they can't trust to tourists.

Actually Cuba has a sprawling tourism sector, mostly european tourists.
In fact Cuba is THE holiday resort for a lot of europeans.

But all the profit goes to the hotels.
And due to Fidel's last public execution even Europeans have started growing a distaste for Cuba (whereas before Europeans loved Cuba blindly)

Its sad but when Cube is finally free of communism it will probably devolve again into the country it was before communism: one big corrupt *****house for the rich and famous from the US and Europe.

My parents were in Cuba shortly before Fidel executed those people that tried to flee.
To be a cleaninglady in the hotel was concidered a very high privilege and required one of the highest degrees in the country (anemly you had to be skilled in quite a few languages) its quite sad.

there is tourism in Cuba, and why do you think Cuba is so popular? Because of her untouched natural beauty or because of the big picture of Che Gueara on city hall and stuff like that...
People who run away from Cuba, are mostly too stupid or too smart people (stupid are blinded by americas capitalism, and smart just cannot live in limited freedom, but in my opinion I think that that limited freedom isnt so radical and it wouldnt bother me that much if I lived there)..

I seriously doupt that, Che

once again he was talking about communists, not statecommunism [/b][/quote]
What does that have to do with my post?

Bohor,
You have no idea what are you talking about.

People are trying to do something with their life, have education for their children, be able to give a toy to their children. You probably have no idea how poor is that country.

And, where do you live? Why don't you move to Cuba? They accept communists from all over the world! Tito was Fidel’s close friend, so you might get nicer barrack. :D

As tourisms goes, I don’t think it’s any close where it might be.

and besides... if it werent for the communism in ex-yu teritories, some of those countries would have never been where they are now.. Take Slovenia for example who is in EU, and Croatia which will probably be in the 2009. Im talking about raised standards here... If it werent for communism in ex-yu countries we (slovenia, croatia) would probably have standards like Bulgaria or Romania...

Only in statecommunism could one actually prohibit others from leaving.
You act as if emprisonment is a cornerstone of communism. While its actually more a cornerstone of Stalinism

I seriously doupt that, Che [/b][/quote]
...no really it wouldnt! What, its forbiden to organize big groups? With whom am I going to do that!? I have 10 good friends maximum, and I never go out with more than 3 of them...

Group of 3 is already problem...

But this brings another issue of you not being very communicative and about your poor social life. :D

yes, you are right... They should build way more communistic mounuments (a statue of Tito maybe :whistle: ) and you would see how the tourism would prosper...

and buhuuu... a dady cannot aford to buy his son a brand new ROBOTMAN2000 with a remote control, red-blinking eyes, and a mega fist which, when you press a red button, can be used to shoot down his enemies... I think all kids in Cuba one... :rolleyes:

You got that wrong...

Just for example, we would not have this stupid discussion if you are living in Cuba, as internet is ‘evil of the west', and you would not be able to have a simple PC, even that just couple hundreds of miles away you can buy used PC for couple of bucks.

Not to mention that you hardly survive with what money you can make in a month.

Also, kids who did not rise without the toys have no idea what I am talking about.

Only in statecommunism could one actually prohibit others from leaving.
You act as if emprisonment is a cornerstone of communism. While its actually more a cornerstone of Stalinism [/b][/quote]
Communism stands or falls by the willingness of others to participate. If make it voluntary the system will collapse because it is easier not to participate and take advantage of the benefits. In a small scale you can find enough people that are willing to freely participate on larger scales there are a lot of people who do not want that. You could let them leave but that would be the end of the system, communist societies therefore always resort to involuntary compliance.

Besides kibbutz are not that successful either they have just not collapsed wholesale into a pile of rubbish as the USSR and Eastern Europe did 15 years ago.

Why? No offence to anyone, but this isn't exactly an academic/political forum and therefore most of the people here will only know of communism from what they might have heard on tv or read in books/magazines. Better to ask this of people who have actively studied and compared this.

Also you seem to be missing an "I love it" option. Sounds like American propaganda. ;) Either you hate it, don't care or are one.

They were succesfull for a long time. But eventually with the creation of the state of israel its inhabitants felt more as Members of the State of israel, rather than Communists. Many felt the young nation could use their skills more than the commune.

Eventually the communes started using currency (of the state) but to this day each member still preforms his or her task that he or she is best at. Religion is kept to a menimum if there is any at all.

So to claim that it crumbled and is hanging on by a thread would be quite erronous

Good point, there are no positive options on this poll.

I dont see whats the problem here...
on Cuba education and health care is free!! :bleh: LOL

As it is in England, but we're not communists.

no truer wod ever spoken.

OK:
a ) Communism as an idea brought forth by Karl Marx: A violet way to prevent the kapitalist from exployting the working class. Wanted to use force to overthrow the elite and put a dictatorship of the proletariat in power - REALLY BAD IDEA.
b ) Communism as the regime in power in different countries: Was only communism in it's name and some superficial claims. Actaully the socialism in ex-Yugoslavia was the closest thing to the real state-communism (and it was a faliour - BTW: Bohor - love your profile picture - I know it's kinda late - but happy aniversery of AVNOJ).
c ) Second international - the main brain behind it was Karl Kautsky. I suggest you read all his work! He tryed to combine the positive ideas of communism (people not exploiting another people, people being together in peaceful and harmonious comunities, people caring for eachother,...) with other positive values of the society (even tried to prove that the original idea of communism is close to the original mathods that the early chritianity used). He was the first to attack Lenin when he imployed terror in the Russian Soviet Republic (even before the first SSSR). His kind of communisim (also referd to as Austromarxism) - a good idea, that could be really build upon.

Personaly I would say I am more of a communist then anything else - but not in the political sence (far away from Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Tito, Mao, Castro,...). The main idea of: Everybody work as much as they can and take as much as they need; might be unpractical but if people would not cheat on the idea (which they would) it would not be a bad world out there. I'd only change the "work as much as you can" into "work as much as it is needed". If all the work would be distributed among all the people who would be able to do it people would need to do less and would be able to gain more.

So you follow Thomas Morus utopean approach to economy and work?

Basically yes.
I don't blindly follow some writen words centouries old - they need to be addopted, but yes. Thomas Morus is a shinig example of a positive thinker who contributed to the future generations.
His phalangs were a small revolution in itself.

I really don't care to much about them or anything to do with them. As long as they don't have anything to do with me I good.

Bankrupt why did you bring this up. You're just asking for pointless arguements. I say we ban all conversation on religion and communism, and anything else that is going to start these stupid arguements.

WHY?
People are able to talk in a civilized maner and such conversation can be intelectually stimulating - not to mention interesting (to some at least - othervise such topics would not apeare). If you're not interested in them there's no point in you reading them - no one is forcing you... Nor to comment for that matter, but every opinion (if it is not insoulting) is always welcome in a discusion.
And if you wanna have a fight over something - you can have it even over a computer game (people are arguing about which game is the worst, which Civ is the best) and those topisc aren't problematic, but could be insulting also...

yeah I mean like lenin. Communism has it ways to become dikttatorship but still.


communism is a great way of living if the people behind is right :ok:

Do I want everything I make and do to be the property of the State?

In a word, no.
In two words, hell no.

You're have a point, but your looking at it all wrong.

No-one would have anything of their own, but that would be because they would willingly give it to the community. WILLINGLY - they must not be forced into it - that way just wouldn't work.
And if everything is in the ownership of the community then you will have nothing of your own and for the work you will do you will borrow the things you need from the community - so all you will do will in a way belong back to the community.

Do not judge the idea (something that should improve life of all) by it's implementation (something that happened - or is still going on in the people's republics - socialist states or communistic regimes).

The idea will lead to stagnation and can only work in very undeveloped societies. It works best in agrarian societies where everyone grows their own needs and wants and needs the same things. In a modern society it is impossible because of all the diverse wishes and needs of the people.

So far that's the only valid point I ever heard against the (idelistic) communism.

You are right, but the way things stand now - well as a historian I fear that were are aware that there's an edge of a cliff somewhere near by and are blindly running towards it.
The way things are going I'm afraid the next dark age is inevedable. We can easily compare the downfall of the Roman empire to the situation we have today (and the mighty empire has fallen already - we just don't know it yet - and I don't mean America, that's just a side product of the collapse).
Look at the stagnation in economy (and the countries that suffer from it are far from being communist...).
Some great change will happen in the not so distant future and we will still be alive to see it - I just hope we won't regret still being alive at that point.

L.o.l., I rather think not.

Hope your right!

I agree with sebatianos, the capitalism is on the werge of collapse, and than the new era is beggining... :eeeeeh: I think it will be some kind of communism!! (btw communism would have functioned great if it werent for capitalism)

Why would you think that and why do you blame capatalism for the collapse of communism?

because communism economy cannot function paralel with capitalistic one...
capitalism will crumble because of the oil crisis, and other things...

So if you're a communist leader, you'd better make darn sure all of your people are 100% committed to communism. How do you do that? Well, you root out the closet capitalists and either have them killed or ship them off to the gulags. Oh, joy! It's best to do this in a high-profile manner, so that any potential dissidents will have no doubts about what becomes of Enemies of the State. :rifle:

NO!
That's been done and it didn't work (but shouldn't have been tried at all).
The real reason communism collapsed (and it acctually didn't - China is still a communist country and the fastest developing country in the world!!!) was the incapability of the leaders.
If there was something wrong they didn't care for the real causes - but just tried to solve it in an unpractical and political way.
Example:
Russia was starving. Russia had a lot of land that was not farmed. Conclusion - farm more land and the people will not starve.
They produced 250% of weath (in comparison to the previous year) but they had to throw 80% away because they lacked the capability to store or prcess it (they haven't built a single mill or a storage fascility - and they were lacking those a year before)!
Those decisions are not the fault of an idea - but of smallbrained dictator regime that will not listen to reason.
BTW - the theory of communisem never said it should have a dictator leading the country!!!

It also isn't exactly the original communism anymore and they've made a few concessions to capitalism. And for how long will it stay communist? Many analysts agree the Communist Party won't stay in power for much longer.

7 communist hmmmmmm not bad I hoped 4 more

Why?
Planning on overthrowing a government soon?

yeah taking down Bush and Bondevik motsly Bondevik (not simple killing the president)

You'll need more than 11 people to overthrow the government.
You couldn't overthrow a fridge with 11 people.

Ah, China! Now there's a society that values its citizens. They're a perfect example of why communism will not ever work on a large scale over a long term, and in fact cannot work that way: because its basic tenets run counter to the human spirit. Very rare is the individual born with the dream of being no more than a small cog in a large wheel, and that is exactly what you are under a communist system. To get people to think that way, you have to convince them that it is right - with the stock of a rifle (I can't say b-u-t-t?), for example, or the threat of violence against their families.

<!--QuoteBegin-Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 02:31 PM
BTW - the theory of communisem never said it should have a dictator leading the country!!![/quote]
That's another thing: Everyone's supposed to be equally insignificant under communism, if I understand it correctly. So what's to hold the whole thing together? As soon as someone assumes a position of authority, well, they're not exactly equal to everyone else anymore, are they? Then the proles aren't working for the entire society so much as they are for the guy holding the whip. Just like that, you've got a dictatorship. It is an inevitable consequence of such a system.

This censoring thing is getting silly. Sure, some words should be filtered (like f**k or c**t and other "strong" swear words) but no one is going to be offended by b-utt or c-rap or anything, and it just gets in the way.

But isn't that exactly what the church is teaching?
You're just a cog in the machinery set by God?

And where did you get the idea that people under the communist regime should be insignificant? They were always the main focus - communism was created to help people live a better life (it didn't work) - but then again - democracy is said to give the right of voice to anyone - can you really change anything with your little voice??? Is the individual taken care of in democracy?
In communism (the one we had in ex-Yu) you knew that at the age of 7 you'll go to school, when you finished elementary school you could enter any high school and later on any university (you just needed to be a good enough student) and it was all for free. You knew that after you finished your education you will get a job and will have social security. You didn't worry about a place to live, because if there weren't enough the state built them. You didn't have to worry about the medical care because you just neede to show up at the doctor's office with an ID and you got taken care off (not emergency only). Does that sound like insignificancy to you? Does your system take such good care off you?

@Stroggy - I couldn't answer sooner - who said that a political system (no matter what's it called) should not addopt. The system in China is an adoptation of communism - if it doesn't addopt it will have to die (like all things in life).

uh, dont relly care... the system is decent and understandable, but i dont care

Tito :D

Anyway the idea of communism i know was that you actually voted. not for party but for person. everyone HAD to participate in decision making proces. and everony had to do something in their own environment (county). which made ift very efficient from pushing areas wiped out from ww2 and farming land into good economies. The problem was someone got greedy and wanted to get all the money without actually working to get it. so certain countries decided to leave such a system.

Finaly a fellow Slovenian (Gregor),...
Well communism in Yugoslavia didn't collapse because of greed,...
The economy was was below zero!!!
Giant factories like TAM (a truck and bus factory) was still using equipment they got from Hitler during the WW2 (and they used it in the 90's). Then they were wondering why can they compete with foregin manufacturers and why they went bancrupt (the reasons why they haven't upgrated their equipment - or why they survived so long were even worse).
Basicaly what the government of Yugoslavia did was this - whenever something was wrong they took an international loan - but could never repay it. All the countries of the former Yugoslavia are still deep in depth because of this (and the war didn't help them either - but that one is another story).

Sebatianos, you only addressed one small part of my post. What about the rest?


Ummm...no? But that's not even tangentially related to the topic of this thread, so let's save it for later, eh?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM And where did you get the idea that people under the communist regime should be insignificant? They were always the main focus - communism was created to help people live a better life

Help them live a better life how? By not allowing them to do anything for themselves?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM (it didn't work)

Yeah, go figure that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM but then again - democracy is said to give the right of voice to anyone - can you really change anything with your little voice???

I'd rather have a little voice than no voice at all. Do you not agree? But now we're mixing governmental and economic systems.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM In communism (the one we had in ex-Yu) you knew that at the age of 7 you'll go to school, when you finished elementary school you could enter any high school and later on any university (you just needed to be a good enough student) and it was all for free.

We've got public schools here too, you know. And if you're a good enough student through high school (or a good enough athlete), your university of choice will award you a scholarship, and it will still be free. Then there are piles and piles of non-merit-based financial aid programs for those who do not qualify for full scholarships...but this is wandering off-topic once again.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM You knew that after you finished your education you will get a job and will have social security.

Our Social Security system is screwed, I'll give you that. My objective is to not ever be in a position to have to rely on it. And as far as getting a job goes, it's really not difficult at all if you've got skills which coincide with the job you're seeking. If you don't, then you've got no business in that job anyway.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM You didn't worry about a place to live, because if there weren't enough the state built them.

We've got tons of federal housing. It's certainly not the nicest housing in the world, but you have the option of working until you can afford something better.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM You didn't have to worry about the medical care because you just neede to show up at the doctor's office with an ID and you got taken care off (not emergency only). Does that sound like insignificancy to you?

An ill or injured worker cannot produce for the State. Obviously he must be repaired or replaced as quickly as possible.

<!--QuoteBegin-Sebatianos@Dec 8 2004, 04:54 PM
Does your system take such good care off you?[/quote]
No, my system provides the means for me to take care of myself. That is the one difference that makes all the difference.

Look - I know you're defending the system you have, and are putting communism down. But what are your real life experiances with communism???
Do you know anything about it besides what you have read or heard? I lived under it and have experianced the flaws and benefits of it - and can compare them to democracy. Trust me - communism is not nearly as bad as you make it sound. It's not perfect (far from it) but certain things worked much better then in other systems.
The idea of communism - and that's what we were talking about in the beggining is a positive idea (but do you even know that idea???). I'm not talking about Marx and his dictatorship of the working class - but of communism! It doesn't require you not to have anything (but if you have more then you need you should share). This doesn't mean that you're the only one who works and then have to give stuff to lazy bums who will live of your work - they'll work to. But let's say you're making computers and the other guy is making bread. Computers are way more expensive - but do you need 5 of them? No one would be sufficiant (the other guy isn't eating all the bread he makes either) so you should forget how much those two would be worth - he'd give you bread whenever you're hungry (for the rest of your life) and you'll give him a computer whenever he needs it (the prices might not add up - but both would get what you need - and noone would be at a loss).

I personaly think that Friut Pie Jones's opinion about communism isn't very objective and relyiable since it is, clearly, filled with typical american paranoya (in this case paranoya from communism)...

No, my opinion is not objective - it's an opinion, fer cryin' out loud, which is subjective by definition! Look, I have absolutely no firsthand experience with communism, and you know what else? I don't want to. You can keep it. On a related note, all I know about Antarctica comes from what I've read, seen, and heard. I've never lived there. But I know for a fact that it's cold.
Hey, since you're clearly an expert on America (you really nailed that "typical American paranoia" thing, except that we spell it differently over here), why don't you go ahead and tell me all about my country's flaws? Come on, it'll be fun.

I know you talked to Bohor, but yeah, might be fun - it's always easyer to tell someone else about their mistakes instead of addmiting your own...
But that's not the point here!
Let's not turn this into a personal matter (and if you were offended - sorry).

who said you are not supposed to vote in communism? in fact you had to go to vote. it was your duty as a citizen to vote. so 99% of population went to election.
anyway i think it's the main question that preocupies societies. who should govern: only the experts or everyone.

and as far as elections are concerned look at the trend in larger democratic (and no one here is saying that communism is not democratic) countries. people just don't go to polls. only about 30% of people is active in voting. so in a way we could say that 30 % (or 40%) decides about the rest. for some reason the rest completelly agree with that. :blink:

oh and as for candidates - you would be suprised that you could actually vote for leftists and right oriented people. except that right oriented were not allowed to use racism or faschist ideas. call me crazy and undemocratic but i don't like the fact that Nazies could come to power.

therefore i conclude - communism can and should be democratic. in fact the one i knew was probably in some ways even more democratic then the system we have now. not because it aloowed everyone to participace in decision making process, but because everyone was asked to participate and could participate (even the cripled ones or "different" ones).

No, my opinion is not objective - it's an opinion, fer cryin' out loud, which is subjective by definition! Look, I have absolutely no firsthand experience with communism, and you know what else? I don't want to. You can keep it. On a related note, all I know about Antarctica comes from what I've read, seen, and heard. I've never lived there. But I know for a fact that it's cold.
Hey, since you're clearly an expert on America (you really nailed that "typical American paranoia" thing, except that we spell it differently over here), why don't you go ahead and tell me all about my country's flaws? Come on, it'll be fun. [/b][/quote]
no I don't want to talk about your countries flaws because that would clearly be an :ot: , and there is too much to say anyway, and Im just too lazy to write it all... :sneaky:
anyway, I dont want to argue with you either... Im just saying that your opinion is strongly influenced by the american propaganda (and we all know how they can be :rolleyes: )...
I mean, why do you not want to live in communism? Just because some rich, fat capitalistic pigs got scared that they will lose all their power and wealth if communism came to america, so they made up a strong propaganda about how communists are evil, cummunists ˝eat children˝, and etc. etc.

I also consider it my duty as a citizen to vote. I have the freedom to not vote, if I so choose; however, those who don't vote, especially if they then complain about the government, have very little credibility in my opinion. They don't like the way things are but can't be bothered to take ten minutes out of their day to do anything about it.

In Australia voting is compulsary, I thnik that this is the right way to go, there should be a box you can tick to say that you do not want to vote for anybody, but you must turn up at a polling station and tick a box.

1st of all u cant say muck about america and how we live and are paranoya with comunists.

Can I? :D

we have a right to free media its not like they r "controling r brains"

I hate Commys!!! That scum are the worst little creeps. Who are they!! What are they !!! Who moved the rock!!! :angry: Get commys!! :evil: *Fawful goes to get sharp knife* Unless its Anubis or Seb or someone else I like a lot. Then I don't hate them. :D All right, I only hate the communist government, not the commys themselves. :whistle:

same i hate the idea i dont hate da ppl

Well I guess no-one really hates the people (of any kind). But do you even know the idea you're hating?
'Cos we weren't talking about the governments that said were communist - but about the idea (and the idea is far from being bad - it's those governmants that abused the power and didn't live up to the idea of communism that gave it a bad reputation).

PS
Fawfull - you really like me??? :wub:
I'm touched.