Scientology

[ReamusLQ]

I don't mean to turn this into a religion bashing thread, because I hate those, so please PLEASE keep all comments objective.

I just recently saw the South Park episode that Tom Cruise got banned from television. It's actually on a celebrity news website HERE (http://www.youtube.com/w/Scientomogy:-South-Park-Trapped-In-the-Closet-Scientology?v=RRVlUuI89cQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eshowbiz2day%2Ecom%2F) for those of you who haven't seen it. I think it was hilarious, and after watching it I talked to one of my scientologist friends. After a couple of hours, I got him talking about the actual beliefs, and he said basically what is said during the episode almost verbatim.

Comments or thoughts on Scientology? Do you think Tom Cruise is freaking out a little too much? If not on Scientology, what'd you think of the South Park episode?

[moogle]

"Daddd!!! Tom Cruise won't come out of my closet!"
AHAHAHAH, this is frickin funny.

[Yobor]

Scientology is the craziest thing I've ever even heard of. I just disregard it completely.

[Shunk Eat Enemy]

i think it adds great comedic material

[Eagle of Fire]

I unfortunatly have no knowledge of Scientiology and thus can't comment.

[moogle]

Y same, but that episode is so funny, and I don't get why its Mature Audiences...

[allyfaucet]

It's silly :P

[moogle]

The South Park John Travolta is awesome...is three an episode thats like South Park Pulp Fiction?
I wish to see South Park Samuel L Jackson w/ affro.

[efthimios]

IIRC the basic premise goes like this.
A long time ago bad evil aliens used to live here on Earth. Then they were nuked or something by some good aliens. The souls of the bad aliens remained trapped on Earth. Those souls keep interfering and in a way possesing the souls of humans. Thus, with the way of the church of Scientology, you are getting free from these evil souls.

To go up the ladder of the church of Scientology you have to read some books and pay larger and larger amount of money to the church.
The creator of the Scientology "religion" was a sci fi writer, hubbard or something (don't care), and he even said (before creating Scientology) that the best way to make money is to create a religion, then after a while, Scientology.

I think that sums it up nicely.

[punch999]

The creator of scientology also gave office managment courses. Back when my mom was a dental assistant her boss started using one of those books. She says the were so utterly absurred that a few of her friends actually took the book and hid it.

[Yobor]

Hahahaha, Yeah, he created scientology as an organization, and then changed it to a religion to avoid taxes.

[Tulac]

Well all I know about Scientology is that it's fashionable, just like Kabala is in Holywood...

[Iron_Scarecrow]

Weird. But I read something about a giant flying purple spaghetti monster creating the world, which is even weirder.

[Toxik]

Originally posted by Iron_Scarecrow@Jan 22 2006, 05:59 PM
Weird. But I read something about a giant flying purple spaghetti monster creating the world, which is even weirder.
To add to weirdness-Space people say that people that arent under their protection(arent paying lotsa money)can be controlled by programmators from Hell that use satellites buried on Moon to send subliminal messages to us....Mommy Im scared!

[BeefontheBone]

Originally posted by Iron_Scarecrow@Jan 22 2006, 04:59 PM
Weird. But I read something about a giant flying purple spaghetti monster creating the world, which is even weirder.
That was somebody's retort to creationism - he argued that if schools were made to teach creationism/ID on an equal footing with evolution, then they should also give the same amount of time to the theory that a giant flying spaghetti monster created the earth.

[TheGiantMidgit]

Yea... the flying spaghetti monster was sheer brilliance...

[Tulac]

A true Touché...

[Blood-Pigggy]

Scientology was not invented by L. Ron Hubbard.

It was invented by a garden gnome whom I personally know, he sends threatening letters to my home, and occasionaly plants some sort of venomous creature inside the envelope.

[rlbell]

Scientology is one of the few true evils in the world. Books to read are The Barefaced Messiah, and A Piece of Blue Sky. I also recommend the Time magazine article "Scientology: The Cult of Greed and Power". The german government said it best when they officially described the Church of Scientology as a 'criminal business organization'.

For more information, and that episode of South Park, go look at Operation Clambake (http://www.xenu.net).

[Blood-Pigggy]

Pure Evil?

I really don't believe Scientology is Satan, you can sum it down to "Very, very, very, bad peoples belief".

[ReamusLQ]

Originally posted by Blood-Pigggy@Jan 22 2006, 03:32 PM
Pure Evil?

I really don't believe Scientology is Satan, you can sum it down to "Very, very, very, bad peoples belief".
very bad people believe in Lord Xenos?

[allyfaucet]

I don't think the people are bad, they're just silly...and they got sucked into a fraud. :P

Edit: By the way, Reamus, why is your avatar all stretched? :blink:

[TheGiantMidgit]

Gotta love the brainwashing techniques employed by cults.

[rlbell]

Originally posted by Blood-Pigggy@Jan 22 2006, 11:32 PM
Pure Evil?

I really don't believe Scientology is Satan, you can sum it down to "Very, very, very, bad peoples belief".
I do not claim that Scientology is the equal to Satan. I just said that it is one of the few true evils. Scientology robs people of their freewill, then it robs people of their money, and finally it robs people of their sanity. In exceptional circumstances, like those of Lisa Macpherson, it also takes their life (from neglect and dehydration, not outright murder).

Their beliefs are based on the outright lies formed by L. Ron Hubbard, for the purposes of seperating the gullible from their money.

[TheGiantMidgit]

Yea, that sums it up. It's a pretty sweet racket they've got going, exploiting the gullible and all.

[Yobor]

Basically, Tom cruise should keep his big mouth shut.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

Funny. 100% say no.

[TheGiantMidgit]

Oh, I didn't vote yet.

Well, not anymore! Ah yea, contaminating poll results... always makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[allyfaucet]

Where does all the money go? :blink:

[TheGiantMidgit]

http://www.xenu.net/index.html

[Bobbin Threadbare]

Heh. I just noticed TGMs sig was animated.

[TheGiantMidgit]

I'm subtle like that.

[Blood-Pigggy]

Originally posted by allyfaucet@Jan 22 2006, 07:49 PM
Where does all the money go? :blink:
It actually goes to my secret Swiss Bank account.

I've been making quite a bundle off of this.

[TheGiantMidgit]

done some research. It operates as any cult would. 300 dollar entry fee, people belittling and berating you until you pay more money and rise in the ranks. Eventually they teach you the "sacred teachings" as in the cartoon (And no, South Park literally did not change a thing). Then they'll convince you you have the potential for special powers (one guy described his ability to spin invisible fibers to protect himself against the alien spirits. So, invisible thing to protect against things that don't exist. Yea, totally believable) and make you pay more money to get those "powers" developed. Nevermind the fact that they have a whole church exclusively for celebrities. Hey, if Tom Cruise is one, why aren't you?

Amazingly scary scam. People have been killed by these guys.

http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/top...999&whichpage=1 (http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19999&whichpage=1) a good read.

[allyfaucet]

Originally posted by TheGiantMidgit@Jan 23 2006, 03:16 AM
300 dollar entry fee, people belittling and berating you until you pay more money and rise in the ranks. Eventually they teach you the "sacred teachings" as in the cartoon (And no, South Park literally did not change a thing). Then they'll convince you you have the potential for special powers (one guy described his ability to spin invisible fibers to protect himself against the alien spirits. So, invisible thing to protect against things that don't exist. Yea, totally believable) and make you pay more money to get those "powers" developed.
That's really wild stuff :blink:

I know a few Scientologists, but they don't talk about what they believe...which isn't very characteristic of any other religion I've heard of. Maybe they're using their powers!

[TheGiantMidgit]

Well, other scary things they're doing is stuff like brainwashing druggies and criminals in their "rehabilitation programs"....

"If you've checked out the Scientology official website, you can see how they try to pawn themselves off as just another religion. Once inside, you go through an expensive "auditing process" which costs into the tens of thousands of dollars and takes 10+ hours. The only way you can repay this debt is by auditing others or if you are, say, a rich celebrity. They keep you in this room for hours with an eMeter and wear you down and get you to reveal your secrets to them. Once they have your secrets, they will blackmail you if you try to leave so they can keep you in and take your money or use you for slave labor. Scientology purposely attracts celebrities in order to glamorize its image and attract new followers."

...and a qoute from Mr. Hubbard himself: "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."

"Speaking as a former Scientologist; the Xenu incident forms the backbone of upper level Scientology. Younger recruits and new members are never told about these events until they are receptive enough to believe them. This incident is revealed at OT3 and you need to be in the church for at least 10 years before you reach that level. It will cost you at least $200000 to reach OT3 so if you are a church member earning $15 a week (as a religious organisation they are allowed to pay you as little as that) it might take you several lifetimes.

Just for the sake of interest. If you think OT3 is weird - wait until you see OT8 (which will cost you in the region of $1000 per HOUR)."

[efthimios]

What I wonder is, why someone like Tom Cruise with lots of money and success, get into this scum in the first place? He doesn't look stupid enought to just believe it.

[TheGiantMidgit]

That's what I'm wondering... who paid off who?

[Chuck the plant]

Originally posted by allyfaucet@Jan 23 2006, 04:28 AM
I know a few Scientologists, but they don't talk about what they believe...
...and after reading all that stuff you should well know, WHY: Because they fear to be taken to the looney bin afterwards...

But I also wonder about how people can actually get into that garbage "religion" in the first place. I mean, your average fanatical religious nutjob is born and raised that way, but most scientologists get there more or less deliberatly... :blink:

[TheGiantMidgit]

They're almost forced to... I've read about their communes and punishment techniques... I don't think I'll share those. Along with their brainwashing, seems those are pretty effective methods...

[Chuck the plant]

What I meant is: Nobody is forced to take the first "test". People get there deliberatly. It's not like they're breaking down your door someday and "make" you take that personality test and the first "lesson". People CHOOSE to do that. Even after all the garbage they "teach" there has been made public long ago already. That's what I just can't understand.

[TheGiantMidgit]

I don't understand that either.... there is absolutely no spiritual gratification as far as I can see.... and yea, they verge on attacking you when you go to register, but you don't have to plunk down that 300 bucks and say "Alright, I'm in".

[plix]

Originally posted by efthimios@Jan 22 2006, 11:03 PM
What I wonder is, why someone like Tom Cruise with lots of money and success, get into this scum in the first place? He doesn't look stupid enought to just believe it.
Well, for one thing, celebrities are treated far differently than everyone else and, secondly, Tom Cruise is a *dirty word* looney toon.

[TheGiantMidgit]

Celebrities have to be treated differently. Afterall, they're the "bait".

[efthimios]

I guess everyday people are attracted to it for the same reason they are attracted to religion in general. Insecurities, wanting to get answers to the bigger questions in life, loneliness, fear of death, desire to belong to a group etc. Scientology might look to them as different and perhaps exciting, and when they "advertise" that they can solve all your problems, then, I guess it is not that hard to get new blood, I am sorry, I meant new people, in.

[SirPeter]

I have my own chirch its called the "patriot chirch". So all you americans who think you are patriots should give me $200 money and ill buy you a very neat book!
That way you will get even more patriotic!
After that you will have to send me even more cash to show your level of partio-atism(wow at word). The more money you send the better you are.
..... or do you support Osama.....no? then send me money :)

etc etc etc


(disclaimer using patrioatism as an example to get ehm... ah whatever its an example ffs!)

[ReamusLQ]

I'm always weary of religion bashing sites, mainly because it's hard to differentiate between ones that are only speaking lies, and ones are are actually telling the truth.

I run into a lot of Anti-Mormon websites all the time, most of which are either exagerations on the truth, things taken out of context, or simply not true. I always sites that speak badly of religions (no matter how bizzare they may seem) with a grain of salt, so I usually try to talk to a member of the religion directly. With Scientology however, this is very hard to do beacuse they get very very very very very very very secretive. My friend used to talk to me about what he knew, but now he won't really talk about it at all.

[Stebbi]

Originally posted by moogle@Jan 22 2006, 05:11 AM
"Daddd!!! Tom Cruise won't come out of my closet!"
AHAHAHAH, this is frickin funny.
ALUCARD!!!!!!

Tom cruise is a gimp =)

[rlbell]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ@Jan 23 2006, 03:15 PM
I'm always weary of religion bashing sites, mainly because it's hard to differentiate between ones that are only speaking lies, and ones are are actually telling the truth.

I run into a lot of Anti-Mormon websites all the time, most of which are either exagerations on the truth, things taken out of context, or simply not true. I always sites that speak badly of religions (no matter how bizzare they may seem) with a grain of salt, so I usually try to talk to a member of the religion directly. With Scientology however, this is very hard to do beacuse they get very very very very very very very secretive. My friend used to talk to me about what he knew, but now he won't really talk about it at all.
Scientology is like that. It is so wierd that you have to assume that the statements are lies. However, if you dig a little deeper, it gets too wierd for anyone to make up this stuff. The OT3 account of the Xenu incident is available on the web, as a scan of Hubbard's original handwritten copy. We know that it is in Hubbard's hand, because CoS lawyers have been complaining about it violating copyright. Unfortunately for them, it is not the complete OT3 document, so webbing it falls under the fair use of quoting sections of a larger work for the purposes of criticism.

Scientologists do not talk to non-scientologists, all that much. Even knowing someone who is not a scientologist can be expensive. If a scientologist knows someone who expresses doubts about scientology, it can be a cause for failure to make case gain, which costs more money to deal with by $125/hour auditing. The only way to stop a doubting acqaintance from costing a scientologist thousands of dollars is to disconnect from them.

Scientology practices work (or so Hubbard would have people believe), so if you do a rundown and are not a more able person as a result of it, it is because of some buried incident that you have not admitted, even to yourself. The only way to handle it is to get enough auditting to uncover the incident and then redo the rundown (at the higher levels, this runs to hundreds of thousands of dollars). The point of this is that Scientology maintains that all of your problems with scientology are your own fault, and the only way to handle it is to spend even more money.

Why do cults flourish and why do so many actors and musicians flock to scientology? Some people have a positive need for attention. You show up at a scientology org and you are immediately lavished with attention. If you are not an attention junkie, you run away (screaming is optional). If you are an attention junkie, the initial highs of attention are of a low enough cost that you keep coming back. But the longer you are there, the more they extort out of you for each hit of attention. Scientology specifically attempts to recruit celebreties for two reasons: first because these people are more likely to be attention junkies than non-celebreties, and second, people pay attention to what celebrities say, no matter how unlikely it is for them to actually understand what they are talking about.

[plix]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ@Jan 23 2006, 10:15 AM
With Scientology however, this is very hard to do beacuse they get very very very very very very very secretive. My friend used to talk to me about what he knew, but now he won't really talk about it at all.
One of the really confounding things about Scientology is that most of the members are perfectly normal people who happen to subscribe to an "unusual" belief system. On the other hand, the higher-ups in the organization are dangerously similar to the Mafia (or any other organized crime organization). Look up Operation Snow White, Operation Feakout, or Fair Game some time.

[TheGiantMidgit]

Originally posted by rlbell@Jan 23 2006, 04:07 PM
Why do cults flourish and why do so many actors and musicians flock to scientology? Some people have a positive need for attention. You show up at a scientology org and you are immediately lavished with attention. If you are not an attention junkie, you run away (screaming is optional). If you are an attention junkie, the initial highs of attention are of a low enough cost that you keep coming back. But the longer you are there, the more they extort out of you for each hit of attention. Scientology specifically attempts to recruit celebreties for two reasons: first because these people are more likely to be attention junkies than non-celebreties, and second, people pay attention to what celebrities say, no matter how unlikely it is for them to actually understand what they are talking about.
Right. It's similar to dealing drugs. It's like harbouring an addiction. It's what happens to people on the higher levels that passes as truly terrifying.

[ReamusLQ]

I guess maybe because it just SOUNDS so absurd to me that anyone could buy into that story makes me want to believe it's not true, simply because I have a secret hope Humanity is not that stupid :bleh:

[TheGiantMidgit]

The whole thing is a very scary experiment in sociology and psychology... glad they're outlawed here.

[allyfaucet]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ@Jan 23 2006, 08:33 PM
I guess maybe because it just SOUNDS so absurd to me that anyone could buy into that story makes me want to believe it's not true, simply because I have a secret hope Humanity is not that stupid :bleh:
I agree. I'd like to think that people are more aware of the consequences of their choices.

Perhaps I'm wrong :P

[ReamusLQ]

Originally posted by allyfaucet+Jan 23 2006, 02:20 PM****</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (allyfaucet @ Jan 23 2006, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ******QuoteBegin-ReamusLQ@Jan 23 2006, 08:33 PM
I guess maybe because it just SOUNDS so absurd to me that anyone could buy into that story makes me want to believe it's not true, simply because I have a secret hope Humanity is not that stupid* :bleh:
I agree. I'd like to think that people are more aware of the consequences of their choices.

Perhaps I'm wrong :P [/b][/quote]
<sigh> so many stupid people in the world :ok: I shall pray for them all

[TheGiantMidgit]

It's not stupidity. It's human nature to feel the need to belong to something, and that's what cults like scientology exploit. We're social creatures, afterall.

[ReamusLQ]

Originally posted by TheGiantMidgit@Jan 23 2006, 06:13 PM
It's not stupidity. It's human nature to feel the need to belong to something, and that's what cults like scientology exploit. We're social creatures, afterall.
You seem to know a good deal about the religion, what does it mean to be an Operating Thetan (OT)? To my knowledge, you become an OT once you are "Clear", but what's the point of the different OT levels?

[TheGiantMidgit]

I know the bare minimum about the religion. I am not aware of it's inner working technicalities. I am just applying it's basic mechanics to psychology. It's pretty obvious how they go about doing their "work", but, to satiate your curiosity, I'll look it up.

Before I do, I'll just put in what I suspect it to mean from my previous research: higher OT levels indicate more time in the fold, and more money spent. Higher levels reward the member with better treatment and they are given more information. As we have learned, OT III and such gives one the access to the sacred doctrine. ...of course, by then, they've made sure you're beaten down enough to accept the BS as unquestionable truths.

It's shrouded as an essential part of their belief system though, even though it's just a way of mentally destroying someone sufficiently before moving on to the "next step".

detail of the steps:

Operating Thetan steps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan)

[efthimios]

So, the two next questions are, how advanced is Tom Cruise and why did he split with his ex wife?

[omg]

he came out of the closet

[rlbell]

Originally posted by efthimios@Jan 24 2006, 09:55 AM
So, the two next questions are, how advanced is Tom Cruise and why did he split with his ex wife?
Tom Cruise's previous relationships failed, because his partners refused to become scientologists. Knowing a potential trouble source is hard enough on your bank account, imagine being married to one. Forget negative case gain, Tom's very sanity was threatened.

There is speculation that Hubbard actually believed his own lies, and that the prime beneficiary of the therapeutic effects of his treatments was himself. When achieving the state of clear (not that he ever attested to it), failed to solve his problems, as had extensive auditing beforehand, he needed to come up with further treatments in an effort to handle his problems.

Originally, clears were to have amazing powers of recall, and capable of other above average feats of mental prowess. This was back when scientology was a new science, not a religion. The first attempt to solve the problem of clears still being mediochre people was solved by introducing the e-meter (a device that measures the skin's galvanic response). All it really does is measure how hard the subject is gripping the cans; however, it was imbued with such diagnostic abilities, that the US Food and Drug Administration went after the scientologists for quack medical practices. Hubbard's response was to create the scientology religion.

It is important to emphasise that up to this point, all advertising for Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health had the following in bold letters across the bottom:

THIS IS NOT A RELIGION [SIZE=7]

When even the e-meter could not help him, he created the OT levels. Clears are capable of prodigious, but normal feats of mental prowess, the higher OT levels are "at cause" over their surroundings and capable of doing whatever they please. Evidently, these "at cause" individuals cannot be bothered to further the ends of the CoS, or end world terrorism, or anything else for that matter. More likely, Hubbard was lying about the OT rundowns.

I myself do not believe that Hubbard was sincere in his belief in his advanced scientology programs. He needed to do two things. The first was to have more things for scientologists to do to keep the money flowing in, and the second was to give the scientologists a reason for clears not to have amazing mental abilities.

[ReamusLQ]

I commend your research and knowledge on the subject, and completely agree with you.

My sister was a highschool science teacher, and she once said that if you hook up the electrodes that connect to an e-meter to a pickle, it will make the pickle glow.

She was at a fair and there was a scientologist booth suckering in a bunch of people w/ demonstrations and getting ready to make the sales pitch and take money. She raised her hand and asked to try. They pulled her to the front where she promptly touched the "can" to her tongue, causing the e-meter to shoot WAAAAAAAY higher than the demonstration guys reading, making her like, an OT 8 or 9 or something like that. She then told the pickle story to the dumb founded audience. She saved them all about 200 bucks, and earned an extreme dislike from the scientologist operating the booth.

I love my family :ok:

[Blood-Pigggy]

Woooooow!
People that actually know this much about such a stupid subject sure have lots of time on their hands!

Then again, I am the master of all things 007, so who am I to say?

[SirPeter]

Haha thats a great story.
Should have taped that :D

[Bobbin Threadbare]

Originally posted by rlbell@Jan 25 2006, 02:39 AM
[SIZE=7]
Of course it does.

[rlbell]

Originally posted by Bobbin Threadbare+Jan 25 2006, 08:11 AM****</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bobbin Threadbare @ Jan 25 2006, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ******QuoteBegin-rlbell@Jan 25 2006, 02:39 AM
[SIZE=7]
Of course it does. [/b][/quote]
The formatting went funny. I wanted the statement "This is not a religion" to be in bold, and in a larger font. I should have previewed it, as that size tag got added.

Knowing about Scientology is not stupid. It is a method of preserving freedoms. While there is little danger of the CoS actually forming a world government, becoming the final authority on everything is among their stated goals. Most of the gains made by Scientology in any locale is because people have no idea what they are really like. In most regards, the CoS is not just wierder than you think. it is wierder than you can imagine.

New recruits are required to sign a waiver. In the wiaver, the new recruit agrees to not sue the CoS for any number of possible side effects INCLUDING DEATH. I wish that I was making this up, but this waiver was whipped up to deal with the flap from the woman who was neglected to death during an "Introspection Rundown" (they shut her up is a room until she stopped screaming[oversimplification, but essentially true]). She was directed to take the rundown, because she was experiencing the insane feelings of wanting to leave the cult.

Scientology tries to sneak into places. They have been actively recruiting people through fake addiction treatments and seminars on how to run a business.

While not extremely violent in the traditional sense, they have great pots of money and they use the lawsuit in much the same way that Islamic extremists use carbombs. It does not always work, as they finally had to pay a settlement owed to Lawrence Wollersheim (they spent $160 million to prevent an $8 million judgement). Not that winning a lawsuit is usually important to them, normally they unleash such a torrent of lawsuits that it is easier to give them what they want than to fight it out (why the CoS is considered a tax exempt religious group in the US-- twenty thousand lawsuits filed against the IRS). Fortunately, as knowledge of the methods of the CoS expands, their stealth becomes harder and harder to maintain.

Scientology is a secrecy cult. The more that is known about it, the less it can succeed.

[TheGiantMidgit]

Exactly. Good summarization. Look at the case of Danny Elrich.

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/ also, additional info.

[Tulac]

So basically they use the greatest evil of them all... Lawyers...