...or Supported...

[gregor]

First of all i put this in this section since most comments on this topic are made here. If admins don't see it in that way, please move the thread according to your best judgement.

I see a lot of "it's still being sold" posts. but does anyone also take a look if the software is also supported? Can you get technical support for them?

"Abandonware is computer software which is no longer being sold or supported by its copyright holder."

Just as i suspected - programmes have to be supported (service) just like things that factories make and sell. Personally i can tell you that my factory considers 10 yearold applaince as abandoned. JUst ebcause we choosed to do so. After that time there is no guarantee for getting spare parts or tech support. However within the 10 years time full technical support is available. And i do believe this goes for services as well. Especially programmes.

Which opens another question. These days computers that you buy have preloaded Win XP. There should be support on how to make games (or programmes), made to work only in dos, work in todays systems. That's called technical support. And you have to offer it when you sell your product. Hence it appears if there is no more technical support you really can't sell it anymore. Because without special technical support the programme (game) doesne't work on today's computer systems.

An example would be a game i bought a long time ago called Terra Nova. It's a great game and has very cool movies. However later i bought better computer and uploaded WIN98 with FAT. The game didnt' work anymore because it seems that it only operates in DOS and FAT16. I immediatelly asked for official techsupport. They gave me some advices how to tweak my computer, but none of them worked. After a long while i learned a bit more about DOS, disk systems.... So i thought i would give it another try with some ideas prepared and some more questions (the game was still sold at the time). I tried to contact the support team again but they dind't exists anymore.

In my opinion that game should be abandoned as soon as it didn't work on my new PC. Just as most DOS games don't work on today's PC computer (the kinds you buy in stores) without propper tweaking programmes (Such as DOSBox).

Furthermore i seriously doubt that these games have included detailed instructions (a must in the EU to protect consumer) how to make them work on today's computers. Note that a lot of games have their system requirements specified as 486DX66Mhz or higher which means they MUST work on todays systems. Yet you all know very well that a lot of them don't work nowadays (some need moslo or similar). In fact there is a high chance that this kind of warez (edit: sorry i ment software here) is even illegal to sell because of this fact.

[Data]

well you can always choose to install dos as operating system.
then most games actually work.

The fact that the shops preconfigure your system with winxp doesn't change this. (that is the "fault" of the people who preinstall the stuff)

they probably do this to serve the avarage user. but the avarage user doesn't play games from 12 years ago.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Warez are always illegal.

If you mean that distributors should stop selling old games - try persuading them to and see what they answer.

[GraveDigger]

Warez are obscenely illegal, but a game that only runs in an obsolete operating system such as DOS doesn’t qualify as warez. I believe that if you have a good copy of such a game and provide it to someone who also owns it, but his or her disks are spoilt then such a gesture of yours must be honoured by the copyright holders as legal, and why? Because, they are not supporting the game anymore, even if it is sold in some game packs by some godforsaken third parties.

[gregor]

my point is that it's not enough for a game to be still sold. if it's sold but there is no supported provided for it - it means that it is abandoned. like any other merchandise.
Unless games are art by law definition (which i seriously doubt) it means that same rules apply for them as well as any other merchandise.

One might still have originals of Dune 2 and sell them, but the game no longer has support (mostly technical) and is hence abandoned.

that's what "abandon" means - no one is taking care of it anymore.

[dr_st]

That's why nobody really carez if you warez DOS gamez.

[BeefontheBone]

I think you're miseading that sentence - it's supposed to mean "neither sold nor supported," or at least that's how I usually interpret it. They tend to stop supporting it before they stop selling it, or rather the publishers stop supporting and selling it, but there are still copies for sale that they've already distributed to stores.

[Borodin]

Originally posted by gregor@May 5 2005, 08:47 AM
my point is that it's not enough for a game to be still sold. if it's sold but there is no supported provided for it - it means that it is abandoned. like any other merchandise.
Lack of support does not define who owns the game. If a company owns it, they still have the right to make money off it, even if they're no longer supporting it: their code, their game.

Legal ownership determines who has the rights. You can argue that lack of support constitutes lack of ownership in the courts if you'd like, but we all know beforehand you're going to get screwed. And it's a bit disingenuous, knowing that, to suggest this assumption to others.

[Omuletzu]

You're right borodin, but i think he(gregor) has a point.If a company has the rights to a game, they should cover all the needs of the gamer(ie patches, technical support, extras-manuals,cheats,etc), UNTIL the game is no longer owned by them.That's the way i see it

[Tom Henrik]

lallalalaallaa


Abandonware has different description all over the place, but here on this site we follow THESE rules:

1. No-one is selling the game (second-hand auctions doesn't count).
2. No-one is supporting the game.
3. No-one will get mad at us for placing the software up for download.

The last rule is constantly overlooked by a lot of members on this site <_<


LucasArts and their games Monkey Island 1 and 2 are fine examples.
1. You can't buy these games.
2. LucasArts doesn't support them.
3. LucasArts would kick our A$$ES to Timbuktu and back if we placed them up for download.

Thus, Monkey Island 1 and 2 are NOT abandonware according to this site.


Anyone complaining or trying to go by these three rules will be severly punished.

@ gregor
I am fully aware that others claim that a software is abandoned as long as no-one is supporting it. We, however, don't.

@ dr_st
I think 3D Realms, Sierra, Apogee, Soleau Software, LucasArts, Softdisk, Team 17, and ESPECIALLY ESA and a lot of other companies might like to have a word with you regarding that statement of yours.

And if by a miracle they suddenly stopped caring about warez distribution of DOS games, we wouldn't. Warez is warez no matter the OS. (And you can still BUY DOS, so DOS is NOT abandoned at all).

[Omuletzu]

Dos 7.10 is freeware

[Rogue]

I agree with Tom on this, except that you can't buy DOS for last 8 years. Also microsoft stoped with support of DOS, Win3.11 and Win95. Win98 is still somewhat supported, but neither of those has been sold any more in the states.

I just rescently tried to purchase Win98 or WinNT licenses, but they are not seling those anymore. Same goes for Office 2000.

I rather see less games on this site, then site closed as many others were.

[xoopx]

Originally posted by Anubis@May 5 2005, 02:05 PM
I agree with Tom on this, except that you can't buy DOS for last 8 years. Also microsoft stoped with support of DOS, Win3.11 and Win95. Win98 is still somewhat supported, but neither of those has been sold any more in the states.

I just rescently tried to purchase Win98 or WinNT licenses, but they are not seling those anymore. Same goes for Office 2000.

I rather see less games on this site, then site closed as many others were.
i think we're underneath a lot of people's radar. this is a good thing!

[gregor]

Originally posted by Tom Henrik@May 5 2005, 01:07 PM
1. No-one is selling the game (second-hand auctions doesn't count).
2. No-one is supporting the game.
3. No-one will get mad at us for placing the software up for download.

@ gregor
I am fully aware that others claim that a software is abandoned as long as no-one is supporting it. We, however, don't.

Ok first of all i would like to see those points that Smurf guy made put in the what is abandoware question made in your forums here. Instead it states some statement from wikipedia which IMO is correct, yet obviously not with policy of the site.

Secondly (and this one goes to all) i argue that not only that software withot propper support is abandonware but it might also be illegal to sell such software.
Why? because it has nothing (porpwer instuctions for nowadays users - children) that will protect consumer from making a mess out of his computer system.

why is that so? because a lot of games have it stated that they work in win 3.11 or higher. while in fact it might not work in win 2000 - that means it's all a fraud. get it?

A good example of proper old software that is still sold is Commander Keen. This game is (1) still sold and (2) they have tech support for WinXP (how to make the game work in WMDSound) and you can even write to them and they will help you.

A bad one would be from my experience Terra Nova. I saw it in the store that it is still being sold, yet there is no support for it.

Point being IF someone has rights for certain game (engine) and is selling it, than they have to provide tech support, instructions for todays computers etc. otherwise it's illegal to sell such software. As i sad before games are not artistic works (like music movies...) where one can hold it's right for 20 years (i think it's 20 or is it 25?) after which he looses them.

Also i wonder if the game is still not abandonware if an online store in Nepal (i wonder if they have Internet there?) is selling it while you can't get it in Europe?
And also is it abandonware if a programme or game is being sold by some online store and not by original company?
example ID game is sold in online store but you can't get it from ID.
Also which stores count and which ones don't? do only internet stores count? what abotu those down the street? you would all be suprised how many original package old games you can get there, eventhough they really are abandoned.

[Tom Henrik]

Nice sarcastic points.

However what I wrote above are the rules on this site.

The FAQ i meant to be general, and the general oppinion is that abandonware is not sold, not supported. However, we don't share this view.

Neither does Ken Williams, who sometimes drops by as a guest. My point is, we have a lot of attention on this site, and we are NOT going to jeopardize anything. Even if we didn't have a lot of attention, we would still feel this way about abandonware.

Being sarcastic won't get you anywhere.

[Reup]

Originally posted by Anubis@May 5 2005, 03:05 PM
I agree with Tom on this, except that you can't buy DOS for last 8 years.
You CAN still buy DOS 6.22:
two stores in the Netherlands (http://www.tweakers.net/pricewatch/65778)

That's pretty cheap for an OS €31 :P



@gregor: Abandonware can be explained (rather then defined) in Wikipedia allright, but that does not make it the ultimate truth. Fact of the matter is that abandonware as such is not a legal term at all. So as far as the law is concerned, even 20 year old software that you didn't buy is considered warez! The fact that it's old, not being supported or it's rights not actively protected makes it 'abandonware'.

edit: stupid tags :whistle:

[Eagle of Fire]

why is that so? because a lot of games have it stated that they work in win 3.11 or higher. while in fact it might not work in win 2000 - that means it's all a fraud. get it?I really fail to see any logic whatsoever in this quote. Because there is none. Why would I "get it" then?

Wikipedia is far from being an absolute resource on truth. In fact, most of the (few) times I go to Wikipedia I ask myself if half of what is written is true or pure invention.

Didn't managed to get a true oppinion on the matter yet.

[A. J. Raffles]

To be quite honest, I can't really see much of a point in this discussion. I mean, squabbling over definitions is all very well, but in the end the current policy of avoiding anything which might get a company to sue us is the most reasonable thing to do, right? Part of Abandonia's appeal (for me anyway) lies in the fact that there is a certain amount of "ethics" involved and it isn't simply about getting games for free. I think we should keep it that way, even if it means missing out on the odd game if it isn't entirely clear whether it really is "abandoned".

[gregor]

I really fail to see any logic whatsoever in this quote. Because there is none. Why would I "get it" then?

logic is teh following

1. Enscription on games box says required system to use is 386-25Mhz or higher
2. Game doesen't run on P4 3000Mhz because it's too fast for it
3. Game is not even allowed to be sold, because what says on the box is not true (it's a lie). Consumer is protected.

@ Tom i fail to see any sarcasm in my post. those questions are genuine. some games might be still sold in US by some gaming store and are now sold or supported by official maker.
I received a cataloge before last new year day where among others i could find Sim Earth (original package). and even crapier old games (all in orginal package).

[Titan]

Originally posted by A. J. Raffles@May 5 2005, 09:44 PM
Part of Abandonia's appeal (for me anyway) lies in the fact that there is a certain amount of "ethics" involved and it isn't simply about getting games for free.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Shall be be technical, eh? Becaus that seems where you guys are going.

Try this: Intelectual Property.

The creator has the EXCLUSIVE right to his/her code up to 90 years after it was created (and if things go as planed, that will be extended to 125 years in USA)

The programmer with 99% chanse signed a contract, giving up theire right to the company they worked for.

Therefor the COMPANY owns it..
They can choose to sell it, they might support it, but god damn.. they still OWN it.

If the company went down and under, it's most likly that they sold of the rights as a way to pay off debts, and someone else the the original company now owns the title/code.

They might also choose to just have it stockpiled, and perhaps use the NAME for a sequal in 70 years, but still.. they own it.

So, there is NO definition of "Abandonware".. Abandonware IS "Warez". Just as illigal.

We have our policy to have a friendly rellation with the creators, and not try to feed of them, but on the other hand, realy give the game the cretid it deserves.

Most companies we've talked to find us honest, and that we do more good then harm. Then we have Lucas Art. They are like hawks, and i FULLY understand them, and respect theire view.
Monkey Island is still a strong brand, and they choose to keep it for themselves for later use. IMHO, it's the right choise.

We are NOT about "free gamez", we'r about nostalgy. We target ppl who where in the 10-20 yr range in the late 80's early 90's.
This is where the games start REALY to drop off, and might be lost forever.

There is NO USE WHAT SO EVER to debate this issue. If it doesn't fit, there is The Underdogs at your service. They have quantity, not quality.

[dr_st]

Originally posted by Tom Henrik
I think 3D Realms, Sierra, Apogee, Soleau Software, LucasArts, Softdisk, Team 17, and ESPECIALLY ESA and a lot of other companies might like to have a word with you regarding that statement of yours.

I still stand by my statement. Notice how I said "really carez".

Originally posted by Omuletzu+****</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Omuletzu)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Dos 7.10 is freeware[/b]

Oh, really? Well, what is this DOS 7.10? Who made it? What's it based on?

******QuoteBegin-A.J. Raffles
To be quite honest, I can't really see much of a point in this discussion. I mean, squabbling over definitions is all very well, but in the end the current policy of avoiding anything which might get a company to sue us is the most reasonable thing to do, right?[/quote]

Exactly.

[Omuletzu]

http://newdos.yginfo.net/msdos71/
The site is down at the moment

[Eagle of Fire]

logic is teh following

1. Enscription on games box says required system to use is 386-25Mhz or higher
2. Game doesen't run on P4 3000Mhz because it's too fast for it
3. Game is not even allowed to be sold, because what says on the box is not true (it's a lie). Consumer is protected.

You really need to get your facts up before saying random things. What is written on the box was fine when the game been created so the laws don't apply to them since they already followed them. Company is safe and laughing at people who think like you. :rolleyes:

There is really nothing such as "false representation" in games. Even if the box says that your minimum requirement is a 200 mhz Pentium it's none of the business or responsability of the company who created the game if you can't manage to make it run on a modern computer.

[Titan]

Anyone has anything more to add?

[racer]

I don´t see why is illegal to be honest. Some companies even don´t have old games listed in any catalog. The copyrights are stated in the box, but you can´t buy it anymore from the company and even if they were so kindly to sell...let´s say 50 units of it to hard core fanatics..., is highly probable that they´ll not do it, because the profit is not worthy and blah blah, blah blah. A fine example of this is F1RS from Ubi Soft. The game is not listed anymore and you can´t buy it. So if you want a new one what´ll you gonna do?? (I´m talking about a NEW package not an Ebay used one).

GP2 on the other hand, is a 1996 game, owned by Mobygames (I think). It´s still being sold, altough they don´t give support. It´s not abandon by the fact the rights are still owned and you can buy it.

I´ve seen Cannon Foder as abandonware, BUT is owned by Mobygames too. Is available for downloading in some "selected" abandonware sites out there. THIS IS WAREZ

A comparision that comes to mind: a 1980 LP music maybe is not sold anymore at Tower Records, but you can buy a new one in CD. The same copyrights are there as in the LP, and the company is still supporting it by having it in their catalog and ships the discs needed to the store. Maybe music industry is more "mature"...ok, they have 100 years of history.

[quote]We are NOT about "free gamez", we'r about nostalgy. We target ppl who where in the 10-20 yr range in the late 80's early 90's.
This is where the games start REALY to drop off, and might be lost forever.

Exactly, we´re not aiming the piracy neither warez. We´re promoting a software exchange which is not being sold, supported or available anymore. 99% as in the F1RS example.
This is just one of 4 dictionary definitions given for abandon: "To surrender one's claim to, right to, or interest in; give up entirely".

[A. J. Raffles]

Erm, sorry to be so fussy about a small detail, racer, but would you mind fixing your quotes? It's Titan you're quoting, not me.

[gregor]

Originally posted by Titan@May 6 2005, 09:41 AM


The creator has the EXCLUSIVE right to his/her code up to 90 years after it was created (and if things go as planed, that will be extended to 125 years in USA)

Exactly! They hold Copyrights, meaning you are not allowed to make copies.
Therefore all abandonware is illegal unless there is a special permision form the author that the game can be copied (such as Cesar and Red Baron).

However the game can still be sold in this case (but i doubt anyone would buy it).

[gregor]

Originally posted by Eagle of Fire@May 6 2005, 04:22 PM

You really need to get your facts up before saying random things. What is written on the box was fine when the game been created so the laws don't apply to them since they already followed them. Company is safe and laughing at people who think like you.* :rolleyes:
r.
Unfortunatelly this does' matter. IF you sell it now, facts on box must be for now. it's all to protect the consumer. And it doesne't say minium requiremnt but on some game sit says on 386 or higher! Meaning it has to work on higher processor.

It's like saying you can use an appliance for 110V or higher. and then you plug it into 220V and it messes up your electricity at home at the least. not to mention that appalince is ruined. what do you think the outcome would be? the will say "It's ok because when it was made it worked fine."

Or another example is that car can go 50kph or higher and then the engine explodes at 160kph causing an accident.

we have a law here that doesen't allow false advertising (and that is exactly what that enscriptions is). Sure in this case you can politely return the game, get you money back and report the incident to consumer protection agency who will then take care of lawsuit if the merchandise is not either fixed ot removed form the shelf.

Let me give another example. In McDonalds they advertised that if you buy 4 milk-shakes you get a FIFA 2002 WC. well guess what you got the game but only demo version. Their advertising was false and we sent a note (telling them that what they done is illegal by law) to their HQ in my country. They thanked us for not reporting them to the agency, gave us free lunch coupons and changed the ad where they added big letter "DEMO" to the text. If they hadn't done that i would report them to the agency and they will sue them for missleading consumers.

See?I think I have my facts straight.

[xoopx]

there are few things that are abandoned in the truest sense, like some arcade games that were made in the former communist east germany.. who owns the copyright is lost in the mists of time.
companies in the west that went bust may well have someone else who owns the rights, but wether those people would want to enforce it is another matter.

i think the thing to emphasize is that AT BEST abandonware is a "grey area" and at worst just a thin veil of warez... with a sliding scale of ethics;
people who make copies of games that are still sold, and SELL those (pirates) *worst
people who make copies of games that arent sold, and sell them
people who make copies of games that are still sold and just share them
people who make copies of games that arent sold and just share them
people who make copies of games that have permission given to copy and share *best

[Eagle of Fire]

Gregor, I don't know in which part of the globe you are from but all your examples are really not related to the software example. It's just like comparing apples with bananas.

And your Mc Donald example is very revellant, but has again nothing to do with the current software example.

[BeefontheBone]

too right - those things you describe are not comparable to hard- and software requirements. the requirements carry no intention to mislead, without which there's no real culpability, and in any case retailers are selling software second or third-hand since they buy it from the publishers (possibly via a distributor) and then sell it on - the publishers couldn't be held responsible for the details on the packaging of units they've already sold on becoming out of date, and no judge (or indeed sane individual) would hold the retailer responsible.

[A. J. Raffles]

Gregor, by that reasoning parents who bought a book "suitable for children aged 4 and over" for their 15-year-old son could sue the publisher for what you call "false advertising" if Guess How Much I Love You was not the boy's idea of a ripping good read.
Besides, system requirements aren't exactly "advertising", so the MacDonald's example won't quite work. The note about system requirements on a game package is just there to give people a rough idea of what to expect, that's all, it's not a guarantee that the game will run properly if the requirements are met, it's a warning that it might not run properly if they're not met. That's not quite the same thing.

[xoopx]

Originally posted by A. J. Raffles@May 6 2005, 09:34 PM
Gregor, by that reasoning parents who bought a book "suitable for children aged 4 and over" for their 15-year-old son could sue the publisher for what you call "false advertising" if Guess How Much I Love You was not the boy's idea of a ripping good read.
Besides, system requirements aren't exactly "advertising", so the MacDonald's example won't quite work. The note about system requirements on a game package is just there to give people a rough idea of what to expect, that's all, it's not a guarantee that the game will run properly if the requirements are met, it's a warning that it might not run properly if they're not met. That's not quite the same thing.
i reckon some people mustve tried that "it says windows 3.1 or HIGHER" line because i notice most modern things explicitly list every version its compatible with now.

to be fair, people who are total newbies at computers could genuinely buy something that said "win 3.1 and above" and expect it to run on winxp from the box

[Titan]

gregor.. closingtime for you little topic here.
To be honest, you sound an awful alot like a member i permanetly baned a while ago, but that is hopefully just a co-incidence.

Bottom line: Drop this issue, and adapt to OUR rules.
Use the SEARCH function, and you'll see the two previous MAJOR debates we've had.

If it doesn't fit, sorry, but we'r not changing, the option is up to you.