Cdaccess

[TheSmyth]

I've read a lot of posts on this site regarding CDAccess. As soon as someone points out that they have a game, it seems to get deemed "not abandonware". But they only have a limited number of most titles (i.e. old stock!).

And there seems to be some confusion about games being abandonware just because they can be found for sale.

A couple of examples:-

Earthworm Jim:
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/earthjim.htm
This game was out on the site only recently,yet CDAccess are still selling it. Should it be removed? :crazy:

Asteroids:
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/asteroid.htm
Not the original version, but produced by Activision, who assumingly still hold the rights? (Length of time may be a factor here though).

These aren't the only examples, so maybe the rules on what is and what isn't abandonware need to be cleared up a little?

Your views people?

[Timpsi]

The matter has been discussed before as well, for example in this thread (http://www.abandonia.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3576&hl=cdaccess). The matter is simply so that Abandonia wishes to respect retailers that still carry old titles. For example HOTU has a smiliar policy.

And yes, if you find a game on the site that is still for sale online, report it to the admins at it the download link will be changed into a link to the retailer.

[Rogue]

OEM version of game on sale? Isn't that version that should be sold only with hardware??? :blink:

[The Fifth Horseman]

OEM version of game on sale? Isn't that version that should be sold only with hardware???
*coughcough*
Do they realize?

[Rogue]

They indeed are doing something illegal.

Also just for note, most of the software will problably never sell on their site, as old games are overpriced.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Hmm.... does this mean that we should treat CDA as a retailer OR as a warez company?
Because if they sell an illegal copy of the game, this does not make them any better then we are... except we don't make money on our games here.

[TheSmyth]

Not sure if "requests" was the right place to start this topic. Maybe a mod could move it. But it does relate to requests for game i suppose.

I have nothing personal against cdaccess or any of the other comapnies offering older titles. Credit to them (although the prices do seem extortionate!!! )

But like people have already commented, does one retailer selling the software mean that it is not abandonware?
For information, having worked at a UK games store i can tell you that we had to purchase the games from the publishers to sell in our stores. The publisher has had their percentage, regardless of whether we sold the games on, or not. When the prices of the games dropped it was usually the store that took the punishment.

If that same store was still running, and selling any game on this site, would it mean that it wasn't abandonware?

Or how about if i buy every copy from cdaccess, and offer them for sale as "new" on ebay?

Or perhaps a specialist games shop (expensive types of places that sell snes consoles for ?100 and that type of thing) is selling used copies for ?40? We'd be putting them out of business.

There seems to be a lot of grey areas in the abandonware world, and it's understandable when it comes down to who still owns the rights to a game etc... but something more definitive needs to be done when it just comes down to games that are still for sale.

Rant finished. And if you've read this far......................... thankyou. :cheers:

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by TheSmyth@Mar 15 2005, 06:02 PM
I have nothing personal against cdaccess or any of the other comapnies offering older titles. Credit to them (although the prices do seem extortionate!!!* )
Yep, the prices can be anything from a dollar to 50. There's a list of online stores stickied at the Favourite Oldies and Newbies, and going through them can sometimes help finding better offers.

But like people have already commented, does one retailer selling the software mean that it is not abandonware?
Well, yes and no. The usual definition of abandonware is that the game is no longer sold or supported by the copyright holder. By this definition the software in your example would not be abandonware. However, for example HOTU and Abandonia wish to support the retailers and not offer downloads for games that are available for purchase on the net. Other sites may have different policies.

If that same store was still running, and selling any game on this site, would it mean that it wasn't abandonware?
It'd mean that instead of a download link there would be a buy link to the site selling the game.

Or how about if i buy every copy from cdaccess, and offer them for sale as "new" on ebay?

Or perhaps a specialist games shop (expensive types of places that sell snes consoles for ?100 and that type of thing) is selling used copies for ?40? We'd be putting them out of business.
Well, yeah, here's the thing. Generally only established merchants selling new copies of software are accepted. For example eBay and the second-hand sales at Amazon aren't taken into account.

It is true that for example the specialist stores you mentioned can be harmed by abandonware sites, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I personally believe that currently it is at the right place.


And what comes to CDAccess selling OEM versions, that is a bit disturbing. But then again, it is not uncommon to find OEM versions from bargain bins, either. However, I've dropped a line to CDA asking them about it, and hopefully soon they will explain their point of view (or alternatively either ignore my e-mail or send a bunch of corporate bulls manure).

[TheSmyth]

Originally posted by Timpsi@Mar 15 2005, 04:28 PM
"The usual definition of abandonware is that the game is no longer sold or supported by the copyright holder."

"It is true that for example the specialist stores you mentioned can be harmed by abandonware sites, but the line has to be drawn somewhere"
Nuclear Strike: No longer sold / Supported by EA?

CDAccess: "specialist games shop?"

Don't get me wrong Timpsi, my argument isn't with you. I just feel that it's a bit hypocritical of the whole abandonware scene to look for certain aspects of a game to define it as "not-abandonware". When in the same circumstances another game may be.

If CDAccess was to begin selling copies of a shareware game (which they already do) That doesn't mean that it is no longer shareware.
Likewise, if they have a game which is now in the public domain i.e. http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/draglair.htm
(Recently given away free with numerous ganming magazines)
That doesn'y mean that they cannot sell it.

[TaloN]

theyre re-selling OEM?

my view on CDAccess is that it seems to get hold of old games and sell them on, but thats me.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Sticking a game to a games mag DOES NOT make it public domain. I've got Bloodrayne from a games magazine, and it's still sold.

Public domain = when the copyright holders give out an explicit permission for the games' free redistrubution.

[TheSmyth]

Sorry, maybe "public domain" was a bad choice of words. But the point i was making was that they are selling games that are available for free. They're not doing anything illegal (except maybe the OEM thing?!).
And isn't that just the same as selling abandonware titles?

[Timpsi]

"It is true that for example the specialist stores you mentioned can be harmed by abandonware sites, but the line has to be drawn somewhere"
Nuclear Strike: No longer sold / Supported by EA?

CDAccess: "specialist games shop?"
I was referring to your line "Or perhaps a specialist games shop (expensive types of places that sell snes consoles for ?100 and that type of thing) is selling used copies for ?40? We'd be putting them out of business."

Don't get me wrong Timpsi, my argument isn't with you.
Don't worry, I don't generally take things personally. Matters as matters. :)

I just feel that it's a bit hypocritical of the whole abandonware scene to look for certain aspects of a game to define it as "not-abandonware". When in the same circumstances another game may be.
I'm not sure I see your point here, but I suspect I didn't stress the difference between abandonware and site policy. There are some games that are generally considered as abandoned titles, but are still sold by retailers. Some abandonware sites have decided to offer these for download, but for example Abandonia here has an additional requirement for the software as it rather wishes to support the retailers still carrying the game.

The point is to follow the "if it's not available elsewhere, then people can get it from us" ideology instead of "we have it up for download unless you can find it for sale". The site is kind of a preservatory for titles that are impossible to acquire otherwise.

The ways of determining this have been decided with rather straightforward logic. If the title is for sale on the net and thus globally available for purchase, then there will be a link to the retailer. Second-hand copies are of course inferior, and the seller usually has only one copy of the title.

If CDAccess was to begin selling copies of a shareware game (which they already do) That doesn't mean that it is no longer shareware.
Likewise, if they have a game which is now in the public domain i.e. http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/draglair.htm
(Recently given away free with numerous ganming magazines)
That doesn'y mean that they cannot sell it.

This is true, of course. There are some titles that are still sold by retailers and have also been released as freeware. In these occasions I'd like to see both buy and download links (since a hard copy is always better than a downloaded one, but a freely available game is a freely available game. The site visitor could decide which one he would prefer to get).

However, games on covers of magazines haven't been released as freeware, as the magazines often have been granted a special permission to bundle the game with their papers (and usually even have to pay something for the permission). They're not available for free, as you have to pay for the magazine.

EDIT:

Originally posted by TheSmyth@Mar 15 2005, 07:16 PM
Sorry, maybe "public domain" was a bad choice of words. But the point i was making was that they are selling games that are available for free. They're not doing anything illegal (except maybe the OEM thing?!).
And isn't that just the same as selling abandonware titles?
It is not the same as selling abandonware titles, as freeware games are legally downloadable, while abandonware is illegal to begin with.

Freeware downloads have been approved by the copyright holders, and are thus ok material for the site even though you could buy them from somewhere, too. But as I said in my previous post, a buy link would be nice as well.

[Bob the Dinosuar]

I was under the impression CivII was abandon ware, but a few months ago I bought a copy of it (brand new), from a video game store, that was other wise selling brand new games....

this is probably irrelevent though.... LOL

but how can you have OEM copies of a video game? or is it like the
GameBoy+Game packages?

[TheSmyth]

I would agree with what you say Timpsi. But the sites policy does seem to vary depending upon the game.

I admit Dragons Lair and the cover magazine was a bad analogy.

If the site is dedicated only to abandonware, that is not available in stores / internet retailers etc.. Where do games such as Grand Theft Auto fit in?

It is still supported by Rockstar, it is still licensed by Rockstar, it is definitely still for sale in shops and on the net. And Rockstar have released the game via their own website, to download for free (subject to their EULA). So it is preserved in every concievable way........... yet it is available for download from this site? :eeeeeh:

The point is to follow the "if it's not available elsewhere, then people can get it from us" ideology instead of "we have it up for download unless you can find it for sale". The site is kind of a preservatory for titles that are impossible to acquire otherwise.

More Examples:
SimCity2000:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00...0089788-7253560 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005AG1J/cnwcentralcom-20/104-0089788-7253560)
Jagged Alliance:
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/quick/megapak8pr.htm
Civilization 2:
http://software.surpriced.com/B00002S8AV.html
Command and Conquer:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B...2327235-4347843 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YN2L/qid=1110915866/sr=1-26/ref=sr_1_2_26/202-2327235-4347843)
The Sting:
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/quick/thestingpr.htm

I Could go on, but there's too many to list, and you'll notice that one or two of them are readily available from CDAccess.
Don't get me wrong, i agree that all the titles listed above probably fall into the category of "abandonware" but by whose definition is another matter. :crazy:

n.b. if any of the admin would like to give me the task of checking the rest of the games on the site, i'd be more than happy to help.

[TheSmyth]

Bob - OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer

It usually means the software was provided to a hardware company i.e. DELL / NVIDIA to be packaged along with a certain computer / peripheral.

[Rogue]

Add to above definition: "And NOT sold separately" to define OEM.

This discussion is pointless and at some points I got feeling that Timpsi is paid by online stores to ensure that games should not be on sale. :D

Just a joke, it is in our interest to keep Abandonia running, and best way to do this is to avoid conflicts with software stores even before they start.

[Timpsi]

If the site is dedicated only to abandonware, that is not available in stores / internet retailers etc.. Where do games such as Grand Theft Auto fit in?
In my previous post I suggested placing both a buy and a download link for games that have been released as freeware, but that are still also available for sale somewhere.

So it is preserved in every concievable way........... yet it is available for download from this site? :eeeeeh:
I suspect it's on the site because it's popular, the reviewers liked it, and the folks were happy to see it being released as freeware. No harm done there, although I admit it doesn't exactly go with the abandonia principles as far as I have understood them. There are other freeware games on the site too, though.

More Examples:
SimCity2000:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00...0089788-7253560 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005AG1J/cnwcentralcom-20/104-0089788-7253560)
These are second-hand copies.
Jagged Alliance:
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/quick/megapak8pr.htm
Report this to the admins.
Civilization 2:
http://software.surpriced.com/B00002S8AV.html
This is a new store for me. Do they ship internationally? Do they have some information about themselves somewhere?
Command and Conquer:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B...2327235-4347843 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YN2L/qid=1110915866/sr=1-26/ref=sr_1_2_26/202-2327235-4347843)
Second hand copies again.
The Sting:
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/quick/thestingpr.htm
Again something to report to the admins.

n.b. if any of the admin would like to give me the task of checking the rest of the games on the site, i'd be more than happy to help.
No need for special tasks, just go for it. I've PM'd Tom Henrik when I've spotted games that are still available for purchase somewhere and he has replaced the links.

[TheSmyth]

According to what i've read and learned of abandonia policy, a large number of the best games on the site.... shouldn't be.

It took me 2 minutes to find the links for those games i listed, and there was more than one reatiler for each of the games.

If you check the prices of some of those games though it's enough to make you cry :cry: (CIV2 Multiplayer $27.99!).

While i don't condone piracy, i can't condone daylight robbery either! :D

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by Anubis@Mar 15 2005, 10:05 PM
Add to above definition: "And NOT sold separately" to define OEM.

This discussion is pointless and at some points I got feeling that Timpsi is paid by online stores to ensure that games should not be on sale.* :D
Excuse me? I fail to see your point there, so please explain yourself. Why on earth would online stores hire someone to prevent game sales?

However, I see this discussion as a valuable one, as it has to do with the site principles and the way they are applied in practice.

Just a joke, it is in our interest to keep Abandonia running, and best way to do this is to avoid conflicts with software stores even before they start.
Avoiding conflicts is of minor importance here, really.

[TheSmyth]

Timpsi,
If you follow the links on the amazon pages on the right hand side of each is number of "new" or used copies, and links to retailers. Most of them are online shops, operated through Amazon.

And as i said later, ther was always more than one possible retailer for each of the games. :ok:

Software Surpriced seems to be another of Amazons psuedonyms.

[Rogue]

Timpsi,
reading your post, I got also impression that you had very sad childhood!? LOL

That post was joke, and your over-reaction is quite surprising.

Suggestion: Get a life...

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by TheSmyth@Mar 15 2005, 10:17 PM
If you follow the links on the amazon pages on the right hand side of each is number of "new" or used copies, and links to retailers. Most of them are online shops, operated through Amazon.
Seems though most of them refuse to ship internationally, which is a drag. Seems interesting, though - generally these have been viewed as unreliable sources (due to the lack of information about the sellers), but perhaps they could be utilized somehow?

Software Surpriced seems to be another of Amazons psuedonyms.
Aye, the Surpriced cart seems to link directly to Amazon.

Originally posted by Anubis
That post was joke, and your over-reaction is quite surprising.
The inappropriate content of your post aside, I fail to see how a fair request for explanation of a non-understood comment would be 'overreacting.' Sorry I didn't get your joke, although I did try.

[JJXB]

cdaccess charge extautionate prices for most of the games (aka its being overpriced) i'd be ok with cdaccess if the prices were reasonable for the old games but as most of the games there are overpriced, im against cdaccess. im not against the principle, im against overpricing of old games.

[DeathDude]

I hear ya, some of the prices for some of the older games is just ridiculous. Das not cool :not_ok:

[troop18546]

For a game thats 15 years old isnt worth paying even a buck...

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by troop18546@Mar 16 2005, 12:00 AM
For a game thats 15 years old isnt worth paying even a buck...
I wonder if you say the same about 15 year old books, movies or CDs, too? And I've always thought people in the abandonware circles consider old games valuable and generally better than the new ones.. ;)

[Titan]

Personaly i have NO problems with caughing up 15 $ or 10 € for an old game as long as i know it's good..
eg. I own:
Civ1 for Amiga, costed me 50€ roughly when i got it
Civ1 for PC, costed me 35€ when i bought it.
Civ1 CD-realease bought a few years back. Cost: 10€

Total: 95€ worth of Civilization 1

Civ2, i hold 2 PC-copies of, at the cost of 50€...
and so on...

I don't mind paying for the games, the problem is to get them.
I would NEVER shop again from Amazon after a dispute with them over books i bought a few years back, and most other places i've found it, they don't ship anywhere outside USA.

I did however get Total Annihilation: CC-expantion from an online-shop and the slightly hefty cost of 40€ including shipment, but man.. just the BOX was worth that!

[heatho]

Im not sure im getting this, if a said game is no longer manufactured or supported by the publisher and thus unavailable by any practical non international means, it looks like abandonware to me. But if CD access get hold of a few original copies of it, suddenly they own the sole rights to it, Where will it stop?

[Rogue]

Titan, you bought games at the time they were popular. Even today I am not buying new games, as I believe that they are well overpriced. I believe that with more reasonable pricing they might make more money, as that will decrease pirated software.

I paid 10 bucks for Civ1 and Colonize cobo couple yers back, even I had copy of both games. On amiga most of my software was pirated, as I saw unrealistic to pay 100DM for a single game, which I might dislike after try. :blink:

[TheSmyth]

Although we all know Piracy is bad, many of us still do it in some small (or some cases large) way or another.
But we are supporting a site that is 'technically' Pirating the majority of it's games.
From Abandonia FAQ:
* * * * * * "The distribution of copyrighted software however is, and will allways be, illegal!"
If a music download site was trying to give away old songs (i.e. that were no longer doing the rounds, even on those 'TimeLife' collection CD's :yawn: ) I'm sure the music industry would have no questions about stamping on their heads. And everyone would agree that it was piracy.

That doesn't mean i don't agree with abandonware, just that i think there should be more ridgid rules determining what is and what isn't. Otherwise, what makes us any better than a warez site?

Books are nothing like games.
Games have a life expectancy of..... 5yrs?, 10yrs? (who knows?) but by the end of that, they are usually outclassed by a superior game. Just because i enjoyed playing Duke3D when it first came out, doesn't mean that half-life isn't better than it. :rifle: (If i can pay $5 for half-life / $30 for Duke3D i'd be insane to pick Duke3D!) :crazy:
The Lord of the Rings is over 50 years old and still going strong, in another 50 it'll still be the same.

[red_avatar]

About CDAccess:

I collect old PC games. I'm proud of my 750+ games collection (not counting the rare disk version) but I also have an abandonware collection on my hard drive for more than 12Gb of games I downloaded from Abandonware sites.

Many games I downloaded at first, I later tried to look for on eBay and other sites (GameTZ for example).

Anyway, about CDAccess: On The Underdogs, I often found games I'd wanted to try for years but never managed to find in stores. Especially games in the first half of the 90s barely appear on eBay in my country because back then PC games cost a fortune here and were very very hard to find.

So when HOTU posted a link to CDAccess, I always went to take a look, and I always, always got pissed off by the cost of a 15 year old game! They charge $20 easily for some old games - an amount that I *might* be willing to pay if it wasn't for the big RIP OF that is shipping & handling. I can mail a game for a mere $7 to the US yet they charge $30+ FOR ONE GAME! Even a CD jewel case! You end up paying $50 for a game that's really old! A game that's not even rare ...

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by TheSmyth@Mar 16 2005, 09:35 AM
Books are nothing like games.
Games have a life expectancy of..... 5yrs?, 10yrs? (who knows?) but by the end of that, they are usually outclassed by a superior game. Just because i enjoyed playing Duke3D when it first came out, doesn't mean that half-life isn't better than it. :rifle: (If i can pay $5 for half-life / $30 for Duke3D i'd be insane to pick Duke3D!) :crazy:
The Lord of the Rings is over 50 years old and still going strong, in another 50 it'll still be the same.
Well, here I strongly disagree with you, as I believe the quality of the entertainment is not dependant on its age. I'm afraid your comparison is a bit unfair, as old games are hardly ever 6 times more expensive than the newer ones, and comparing Duke3D to Half-Life is a bit like comparing some Eddings books to Lord of the Rings - sure some people enjoy Eddings, but Lord of the Rings is totally up at its own league.

For example, the old The Great Escape is better than the new version which came out a few years ago. Also, the original Elite is vastly better than it's sequels. Monkey Island 1 is a million times better buy than the 4th part. I'd gladly pay the same (or more) for the old titles as I'd pay for the new ones, knowing I'd have much more fun playing them.

Technologically the games can get more advanced, but it doesn't necessarily mean they'd get better or more valuable. Same thing with books, movies, music, board games, etc.

I do agree that CDAccess is pricey, but it's not usually the only possible source. I recommend checking this thread (http://www.abandonia.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3287) for other possible locations for purchasing old games on the net.

[The Fifth Horseman]

I agree that CDA have ridiculous prices on some old games too, but that's just the way they operate...

For a game thats 15 years old isnt worth paying even a buck...
Negative. I played some very good games from 1987 even, some from 1991 (that's _almost_ 15 years there), and if they were still for sale I would surely buy them (altough 20$ apiece would be ridiculous - 5-10$ would be much more reasonable)

[TheSmyth]

I think the issues have become side tracked here. LOL

My original question was, If a new copy of a game is available on CDAccess (or any other internet retailer) does that automatically mean that it is not abandonware?

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by TheSmyth@Mar 16 2005, 03:09 PM
I think the issues have become side tracked here. LOL

My original question was, If a new copy of a game is available on CDAccess (or any other internet retailer) does that automatically mean that it is not abandonware?
In fact, I addressed this question on the front page of this thread, in this post (http://www.abandonia.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4061&view=findpost&p=80110). It's not simply an issue whethet the title is abandonware or not in order to be accepted on the site, as the common definition of abandonware doesn't include the retailers.

[TheSmyth]

Without want to sound really boring and repetetive Timpsi... :whistle: You said:

"...The usual definition of abandonware is that the game is no longer sold or supported by the copyright holder. By this definition the software in your example would not be abandonware. However, for example HOTU and Abandonia wish to support the retailers and not offer downloads for games that are available for purchase on the net..."

By this definition:
YES - A game would be abandonware even though it is still sold, :ok:
but
NO - Abandonia would not host it because they wish to support the retailers. :ok:
(However i can identify more than a few which are hosted, but fall into this category :crazy: ).
Is it just me or does that seem a bit strange to you?

My point is, who decides if it's suitable for the site? (and what do they do to check that it is abandoned?)

[Rogue]

I buy old books for price between $1.00 and $5.00 and new ones between $6.00 and $30.00. What that has to do with the games?

Timpsi, what about that OEM game? Shouldn't they already know that it is illegal to sell OEM games alone?

[DeathDude]

Some of the prices are just ridiculous for some of the older games, yes some of them are classics, but come on even if it is a classic I want a reasonable price, good example is some of the older Lucasart's titles like Curse of Monkey Island, which is like $14.95 American, for me after conversion and shipping it's almost $30 bucks, way too much, rather get it on ebay then at least then it'd be cheaper.

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by TheSmyth@Mar 16 2005, 03:43 PM
By this definition:
YES - A game would be abandonware even though it is still sold,* :ok:
but
NO - Abandonia would not host it because they wish to support the retailers. :ok:
* * * * (However i can identify more than a few which are hosted, but fall into this category* :crazy: ).
Is it just me or does that seem a bit strange to you?
Well, as you know, the point of abandonware is to offer titles that are impossible to acquire from their copyright holders. Now, Abandonia wishes to go futher than that, and to support the retailers. Therefore just being abandonware isn't enough to get on the site.

However, as it's all voluntary work on a non-profit site, mistakes happen. Also, some titles may get re-released, and old stocks get found. Therefore the situation keeps changing, and some downloads have to get removed from the site. For example this is the case with The Sting! if I remember correctly.

The point here is that Abandinia has an additional policy of its own - it does its best to support the retailers, but it can hardly ever be 100% foolproof.

My point is, who decides if it's suitable for the site? (and what do they do to check that it is abandoned?)
The admins decide what gets put up on the site. I believe they run through several webstores and the creators' sites to check whether the software is ok for the site or not.

What comes to the OEM, it depends on the OEM licence, as not all of them are all that restrictive. I'll get back to this once CDAccess answers me (they did already, but I asked for some more information regarding the origins of Earthworm Jim).

[TheSmyth]

I get the feeling we're going round in circles here, and no-one actually knows the right answer...... :eeeeeh:

Abandonware - Good :ok:
Piracy - Bad :not_ok:
Software Companies selling old Games - Good :ok:
Overpriced Classic Software - Bad :not_ok:
Supporting Retailers - Good :ok:
Ignoring Retailers that we feel like - Bad :not_ok:
People enjoy old games - Good :ok:
People enjoying old games being Piracy - Uhhhhh :crazy:

Abandonware is Illegal, it is Piracy, but we want it because there's no other way to get hold of these games anymore. Many software companies ignore it because they aren't making any profit anyway. But if they suddenly decided they were going to start re-selling it, does that make whats been done at abandonia, no better than warez? And i'm talking 'morally' here as well as in 'Reality'.

If abandonia can't justify what it does with a clear set of rules that clearly show why it picks one game over another and, if circumstances change, the status of a game is re-assessed, then what stands it out from being just another illegal warez site? :tomato:

[Rogue]

I believe to resell the game, they need to redo it, as new computer systems do not suport those games. In that case, it would be a complete new game IMHO.

[DeathDude]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing companies releasing an updated version of an older classic for it to work on the newer computers, that'd wouldn't be bad. I was always hoping that some would try that.

[Rogue]

LucasArt did, and I got some old titles that way (Lucas Art Archives).

X-Win Collector edition is much better then original.

[TheSmyth]

That'd be the best way for everyone. It can be a nightmare trying to get DosBox / VDM sound to run all of the oldies right.
Much better if there's an official updated copy.
I.e. CGA have the updated version of Command and conquer, with music (still only 50mb!) And it runs perfectly under XP.
Woo Hoo..... Kerchinga!

[Razor2]

Just a few things about CDAccess:

1. They sell software which is OEM: illegal
2. They sell software of companies which went bankrupt not mentioning the new owner of the title: illegal


These 2 things show clearly that CDAccess does quite a few illegal things and people living in a glass house should not throw stones, so they won't try any legal action against us.

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by Razor2+Mar 16 2005, 06:47 PM****</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Razor2 @ Mar 16 2005, 06:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Just a few things about CDAccess:

1. They sell software which is OEM: illegal[/b]
Not necessarily. This depends on the OEM licence, and there are more than a few versions of them.
2. They sell software of companies which went bankrupt not mentioning the new owner of the title: illegal
No, it is not illegal to sell old software. They have purchased the products from the wholesaler/publisher, and then proceeded selling them to the end users. They have no obligation to keep track on the current status of the original creators of the products.

These 2 things show clearly that CDAccess does quite a few illegal things and people living in a glass house should not throw stones, so they won't try any legal action against us.
By reading the previous posts it should become evident to you that the possible legal action is not the main reason the admins have placed buy links on the site. Besides, you have very little proof of any illegal action by CDAccess.

EDIT:

******QuoteBegin-TheSmyth
If abandonia can't justify what it does with a clear set of rules that clearly show why it picks one game over another and, if circumstances change, the status of a game is re-assessed, then what stands it out from being just another illegal warez site?[/quote]
I'm afraid there aren't many new arguments to bring into the conversation. What I have tried to stress is that Abandonia respects the abandonware ideology, and goes even futher than that in trying to support the retailers. However, it is not always possible to keep track of all the changes in the software market, and therefore there are games that are sold at some software stores on the site - but once these get reported to the admins, the download links get changed to buy links.

What makes Abandonia better than typical warez sites is that Abandonia cares of the people who bring the games to the people, and does its best to support them, while a warez site posts everything they can get hold of, regardless of its availability.

[Wahoo]

No, it is not illegal to sell old software. They have purchased the products from the wholesaler/publisher, and then proceeded selling them to the end users. They have no obligation to keep track on the current status of the original creators of the products.

So you are saying that i can buy a brand new game from a whole saler and sell it off brand new without the permission of, say, blizzard for example?

If they don't keep track of the original creators then it is certanly abandoned. They don't even mention on the site of any of the games not being abandonware at all, so i see no reason for us not to host them.

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by Wahoo@Mar 16 2005, 11:02 PM
So you are saying that i can buy a brand new game from a whole saler and sell it off brand new without the permission of, say, blizzard for example?
This is a common business practice. Nothing odd there. It's simply the way businesses operate.

If they don't keep track of the original creators then it is certanly abandoned. They don't even mention on the site of any of the games not being abandonware at all, so i see no reason for us not to host them.
Er.. It's irrelevant whether the originating company is still alive or not. Also, abandonware has no legal status, and retailers are under no obligation to the abandonware community to determine whether the products they sell fall under the definition of abandonware.

[Timpsi]

Sorry to make a double-post.

I got some answers from CDAccess to my questions about the OEM version of Earthworm Jim that they are selling (mind you, they have the same game up for sale in several different forms, not just OEM).

Originally posted by CDAccess
OEM agreements apply to the initial hardware vendor. They are obliged not to
break the bundle and sell the items separately. They followed the rules,
went out of business, and their inventory was sold off.

The product is 2nd hand but not used since it has never been opened. When a
publisher sells to a distributor and then to a store that product is also
"2nd hand".

I'm happy with that answer. However, apparently they didn't like my questions, and added the following:

Originally posted by CDAccess
Questions like yours indicate that you will never be completely satisfied
with our answers. Because of that, you certainly should not buy it and we
certainly should not sell it to you. Therefore, it is no longer available
for sale.
That's a bit rude, if you ask me. :( They did not take the games off their site, though, so once again I'm a bit puzzled. No big deal, although I was interested in buying it.

[ReamusLQ]

just out of curiosity Timpsi, what questions did you ask exactly?

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by ReamusLQ@Mar 17 2005, 01:18 AM
just out of curiosity Timpsi, what questions did you ask exactly?
I sent two e-mails. In the first one I asked what the OEM marking at the Earthworm Jim page (here (http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/earthjim.htm)) exactly meant, as I've always thought such versions are only to be sold with hardware. I was answered that it had belonged to a bundle some time ago and had then been sold separately.

In my second mail I thanked for the reply and asked: "As far as I know, OEM software licenses prohibit resale without the original hardware. How come is it that CDAccess is selling OEM software? Also, since it has been a part of a bundle, doesn't it make it a second-hand copy?"

[ReamusLQ]

sounds like you pissed them off Timpsi :-p Maybe your use of logic made their head explode...or maybe you caught them doing very very bad things :sneaky:

[TheSmyth]

Some of these postings seem a bit hypocritical.


RE: Retailers that count:

"Generally only established merchants selling new copies of software are accepted" :ok:

"So you are saying that i can buy a brand new game from a whole saler and sell it off brand new without the permission of, say, blizzard for example? "

This is a common business practice. Nothing odd there. It's simply the way businesses operate. :not_ok:

RE: Abandonwares Legal Staus

....abandonware is illegal to begin with :ok:

Followed BY:

abandonware has no legal status :not_ok:

RE: Grand Theft Auto

The site is kind of a preservatory for titles that are impossible to acquire otherwise. :ok:

I suspect it's on the site because it's popular :not_ok:

N.B. GTA is not Freeware the EULA prohibits re-ditribution. :whistle:

No offence Timpsi, but none of us are obviously involved in the decision making processes of Abandonia. My original posting was to try and find the reasoning behind the choice of games for the site.
Although I bow down to your superhero like powers of annoying CDAccess :kosta:

[DeathDude]

No kidding you certainly stroke a cord with someone at CDAccess, heh talk about professionalism.

[heatho]

And we have to trust these assholes not to suddenly find more stock of games we don't wanna have to sell our children to play.

[Titan]

Please refrain from flaming, or i'll have to boot up my "auto-flamer v 3.1".

[heatho]

Consider me refrained.

[Timpsi]

Originally posted by TheSmyth@Mar 17 2005, 02:10 AM
Some of these postings seem a bit hypocritical.
RE: Retailers that count:
"Generally only established merchants selling new copies of software are accepted" :ok:
"So you are saying that i can buy a brand new game from a whole saler and sell it off brand new without the permission of, say, blizzard for example? "
This is a common business practice. Nothing odd there. It's simply the way businesses operate. :not_ok:
What's hypocritical here? In the first example I'm talking about the site policy, and in the second one we're talking about retail business operations. A completely different issue there.

RE: Abandonwares Legal Staus
....abandonware is illegal to begin with :ok:
Followed BY:
abandonware has no legal status :not_ok:

In the second example my point was that there is no such concept as abandonware that you could find from a law book - the law that makes abandonware illegal is the copyright law. The guy was wondering why companies don't say if the games they sell are abandonware or not.


RE: Grand Theft Auto
The site is kind of a preservatory for titles that are impossible to acquire otherwise. :ok:
I suspect it's on the site because it's popular :not_ok:
Well, this one I agree with, as the game is still easily available. But if it has to be on the site, why not link directly to the Rockstar download page (and save some bandwith while doing so), now that it can be done?

N.B. GTA is not Freeware the EULA prohibits re-ditribution. :whistle:
This was indeed the case in the beginning, but later on Rockstar removed the section that prohibited redistributing. However, what you say is true with Wild Metal Country and GTA2.

No offence Timpsi, but none of us are obviously involved in the decision making processes of Abandonia. My original posting was to try and find the reasoning behind the choice of games for the site.
Well, this is true. However, the admins seem to steer away from this topic for some reason. I hope I've been able to clarify the issue.

[TheSmyth]

I don't really feel the issue is going to be resolved, but thanks for trying Timpsi. :ok:

[BLOODUK]

Come to think of it ive seen nearly all these games listed on ebay
QUICK LETS REMOVE THE STUFF FROM HERE CAUSE ITS WAREZ!

:sniper:

[Mad-E-Fact]

Originally posted by BLOODUK@Mar 17 2005, 07:36 PM
Come to think of it ive seen nearly all these games listed on ebay
QUICK LETS REMOVE THE STUFF FROM HERE CAUSE ITS WAREZ!

:sniper:
Used games don't count...