Art in games

[jonh_sabugs]

Helo there,

I have been wondering whether the artistic value in games is disappearing. I have always been very attracted to things like great writing, beautiful hand drawn graphics, memorable soundtracks, voice actings, etc. It seems that a lot of people used to put real effort in producing pieces in these categories, eventually creating some really good works. Modern games seem to lack these features, it's either a focus in technical details like graphical technology and silly gameplay features, or "realistic" visuals, which are a boring copy of reality. Have artists been scared away from gaming industry?

I have opened this thread actually because I am looking for new games with such features. It seems that looking for them at mainstream products is a waste of time...

So, any suggestions?

[dosraider]

..I have been wondering whether the artistic value in games is disappearing....
Not always.
Keepsake (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/keepsake/screenshots) was kinda swell done.

[Lulu_Jane]

Amanita Design makes beautiful looking games that revel in illustration.

http://amanita-design.net/

There's always some terrible stuff around and some wonderful stuff. It's not like Custer's Revenge was art back in the day.

[jonh_sabugs]

Maybe, but I have the impression these games are receiving less and less visibility these days. These two you recommended, I had never heard of. Ok, enough talk, off to try them.

[Lulu_Jane]

Enjoy! :D

Also, maybe you could give us some examples of games you consider to be art, then we could give you better recommendations :)

[DarthHelmet86]

Art in games is subjective, it's all up to the person to find what they think of as art and enjoy it.

Also artistic games (as in ones made to expresses some artistic notion of the creator) are hardly getting less interest now then before...they have always gotten little interest. Most people play games to pass some time or to help them relax they are not playing to get some great art into their house, but for those who do want it there are plenty of games out there with art in them, Newgrounds.com has a few very nice flash games filled with art, I believe they even have them under their own section now.

What do you know yes they do http://www.newgrounds.com/collection/artgames.html have fun. :p

[jonh_sabugs]

I don't know. I feel that there used to be a larger effort in this sense in games. Yes, I agree art is subjective, but I was refering to more well established categories, if you can say that. Take games like Planescape for example, it had some very nice writing. Older games had a lot of writing, some of them were quite good. So, I ask, are writers today less inclined to try their work in games (or the industry less interested in seeking them)? I think so. I was also thinking about drawing. Games like Syberia had impressive hand drawn scenes (well, lots of old games had beautiful things like that), it seems that some obssession with "realism" is killing that though. There are other categories, like soundtrack, voice acting, etc.

So, there. I am not looking for art for the art's sake. It's just that these games used to inspire awe in me and get me really involved.

In this sense, I would regard even games like Monkey Island in these categories, if nothing else, for its well written humour dialogs (which is some form of art I think). There are many more I could fit in these descriptions, I will do a list sometime.

[RRS]

When you don't know what it's all about, it's about the money.

$$$ is killing stuff, like games, movies, etc.

For huge companies that finance those large projects (you can't make another Call of Duty in a team of, say, three) care only about profit.

Sure, there has to be a profit. Don't expect teams of professionals working for free.

In the older days of gaming, games were making less $$$ - and even those famous ones required smaller design teams to what we usually get today.

This allowed a dedicated team of enthusiasts create a labor of love. The work spent on the game was way much than the salary they were paid.
Only one person or a small group may elect to work more than they're getting paid for that. For idealistic reasons, they want their creation to be really special.
This produced those fine old games.

Games are an industry now. Design is streamlined, pipelined now - with the number of people working, it's a must. People do what's in their task list for today. Their team is owned by a huge corporation that will not allow them to work just a few days more to remove those bugs.

All of this applies to mainstream games that get the most media attention. There are still independent developers out there who work similarly to those design teams of the yesteryear. They still make those rare gems, it's just harder to find them in the flood of the heavily marketed junk.

[jonh_sabugs]

I suppose you have a point. It is sad, and I suppose a little disappointing, though, to see things going in that direction. I used to be really amazed by certain games elements, and used to think how much more impressive they would become as technolgy evolved. Now that we are there, studios seem to waste a great potential in mediocre products. Ah, heck, maybe we will live to see the day games become a fine art again.

I am playing keepsake. The game is fun, even though some characters may be annoying at times.

[TotalAnarchy]

I think a lot of people suffer from a common syndrome when they tackle the notion "art", "artistic", "creativity" etc. A lot of these people would consider a black square (read Malevich) art, but will never consider architecture, a building (say Empire State Building), because hundreds people were involved in constructing it.

First, I want to say even when a team of 100 people work on a single game, it can be art, and it's most certainly a use of creativity. Because there's a level designer (guy) who needs to think how to make some original and interesting maps, there's a composer that needs to make a soundtrack that would perfectly envelop the game's feeling, a character designer that needs to come up with interesting characters, a writer who wants to put on paper an engaging story etc. And above them there's the general game designer who fleshes out the main ideas of the game, he outlines the main gameplay features, and gives the direction for all the other components (details, graphics, atmosphere, music etc.).

Saying that less dedication is put into games nowadays, when more people are working on them, is pretty much nonsense to me.

Even if every guy works on a separate component, what he does is more or less a form of art, except stuff like programming, debugging and testing.

Plus, I have seen lots of more pretentious games as well in the last decade, starting with Bioshock and Okami and whatever and ending with Daedalic games and indie productions.

I don't know what old games you think are art. Certainly Syberia is an inspiring adventure, but so are PC MoHs' soundtracks or Oblivion's unexplored realm. Giving LucasArts games as an example of ultimate art games is not such a good idea in my opinion, because they're stupidly funny games with a lot of polish, not genius storytelling and drawing.

A lot of people posed the same question. An example: http://www.destructoid.com/art-games-aren-t-innovative-and-innovation-isn-t-good-163912.phtml

[DarthHelmet86]

^What TA said.

[Lulu_Jane]

Seconding the mention of Syberia - the art design in that is a complete love letter to the Belle Epoque right through to Art Deco. And of course, the story is pretty cool too.

[jonh_sabugs]

...


What can I say, as a mere mortal I am trying to judge only how it appeals to me, not how I would define art. I think you are over analyzing it, trying to rationalize and measuring everything in levels of creativity. In the end, it's just my personal perception of atmospheric involvement and awe. Sorry, a 100 stories building may take a lot of effort but, depending on how it was designed, it can feel as bland and uninspired as many modern games. Technical achievements have great value to technicians, but not necessarily to the layman (maybe some practical value, but that's not the case for games).

No one would be silly enough to claim a team of 100 people didn't put some level of dedication in a product. But you can safely say not all things mankind build are truly inspired, in fact a very small share of them are. Like I said before, a techincal focused product is different. They are creative? Definetly, but that doesn't translate automatically into the feeling of wonder for the players.

All of this brings me back to my original point. Talented writers, drawers, among others, don't seem to be much present in game industry any longer, which is a shame.

In the end, we seem to differ in what we consider art. Since I am against trying to rationalize much these subjectives concepts, I will simply refer to it as awe inspiring and atmospheric engagement (like I said, I am simply a mortal and can only judge from my own perspective). I have read the article, and I will repeat what I posted earlier: art for art's sake is pointless and will lose all of it's intended value.

Finally, an addendum: I don't understand why you consider any contribution to a game as art but can't see Monkey Island's well-crafted game as such (and I have never said anyting about "ultimate").

[dosraider]

All of this brings me back to my original point. Talented writers, drawers, among others, don't seem to be much present in game industry any longer, which is a shame.
Creativity, freedom of being innovative and sheduled releases/dev time restrictions don't go swell together.

[TotalAnarchy]

Finally, an addendum: I don't understand why you consider any contribution to a game as art but can't see Monkey Island's well-crafted game as such (and I have never said anyting about "ultimate").

My opinion towards MI is the same as towards other games. I was just trying to figure out what old games you consider superior in what you're trying to experience, and I saw you mention MI, that's all.

Maybe if you mention what exactly you're looking for so we all can come up with suggestions. From the adventures that impressed me with their atmospheric feeling I can mention Beneath a Steel Sky, the first two Broken Swords, The Whispered World, the first Gabriel Knight, Dreamfall and most likely the first Longest Journey (which I haven't played yet), the Shenmue games, Indigo Prophecy, Lost Crown: A Ghost-Hunting Adventure, and Syberia which was already mentioned; I would also mention Perry Rhodan: The Immortals of Terra, Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened and Dark Earth, but these more like resonate with my own preferences.

Now games that really like to deviate from the standard formula aka "games that kick you in the balls": American McGee's productions (especially Alice; Grimm and Scrapland maybe, but stay away from Bad Day LA), XIII (daring art in an FPS), Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth (one of the few survival horror in First-Person perspective, the others are Penumbra and Amnesia), Enclave, Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines, Jade Empire (for getting the chinese theme right), Mark Ecko's Getting Up, different japanese survival horrors except RE of course; I can add the Thief games, Overclocked: A History of Violence, Giants: Citizen Kabuto, the Max Payne games, the Suffering games and Zanzarah, but that may be overstretching.

Now good storylines are harder. I don't remember having experienced a game that left me totally in awe because of its storyline (well I can say the same for movies and animes with a few exceptions). I really liked the stories behind the Longest Journey universe, Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, Beneath a Steel Sky, Gabriel Knight, lotsa epic CRPGs, Silent Hills, Indigo Prophecy, but also simpler "save the prince(ss)" plots like Tribes: Vengeance, or "my life just went down the drains" ones like in The Suffering or Max Payne. I'm also a sucker for sci-fi but I will not mention those.

Also some of the most atmospheric experiences are in FPP, such as SWAT 4, STALKER, games made with the Source engine.

Besides all of these, there lots of titles that I haven't played (yet) and I have no idea about. I hope I helped you improve your opinion about modern games.

[jonh_sabugs]

Nice list, I see a few I haven't tried, I will check them later. I am playing Machinarium now, and that's more like what I wanted. So, there's hope after all.

[Lulu_Jane]

YAY! :D

[Farby Hond]

Have anyone of you played Nocturne? It's one of the best games I've played, not only for being survival horror, but it's the closest I've come to immersing in a 30's noir atmosphere. Its 3d engine was way ahead of its time (1999!), which meant that it demanded high specs, but made the experience possible. If you ask me, Nocturne aged very well even up to now.

I have plans to make some random freeware game on a when-it's-done basis, so I've questioned this "artistic value" in games for months. I see that it tends to boil down to a matter of choosing form or function, or both. Atmosphere/experience can be a cooperation of both sides; getting into the game would require just the right interface/controls, the right visuals, and the proper contexts for both to appear in.

I'm even looking at how artistic fighting games can be esthetically, without having to strobe some ridiculous screen-sized hitsparks from a menial punch. Then there's cases like Tekken/Virtua Fighter/Dead or Alive, which I find balancing depth and craziness--dedicating oneself to a character plus nuances of game engine is almost like studying a martial art (50+ moves per char on avg), but it's also fun as hell to bounce opponents in the air with combos. Plotwise, they tend to be typical martial arts movies, but Tekken is a serious offender with sheer randomness. :hihihi:

These days I'm in it for the gameplay, whether it's fun AND will keep me playing it for days on end. Modern games still manage to accomplish (or seek to...) a distinct visual and gameplay experience from the mainstream though; a lot of what I'd love to get my hands on, like Shadow of the Colossus, Alex Wake, Child of Eden, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, (latter two are future releases) hopefully give more ideas of what to look out for. My 2 cents. :)