Is Diablo a role-playing game or not?

[Simoneer]

Not that I'm a Diablo fan (haven't played much of it), but I want something similair to play. An RPG with loads of action.... Preferably something that's available on this site.
Is there anything similair at all?

[The Fifth Horseman]

Um, Diablo isn't quite an RPG. RPG is acronym for *ta-dam* Role-Playing Game. Not much of that in Diablo.

[Simoneer]

Um, Diablo isn't quite an RPG. RPG is acronym for *ta-dam* Role-Playing Game. Not much of that in Diablo.

There wasn't really anything wrong with what I said, really. I said I wanted an RPG that's similair to Diablo. A game that is an RPG, and is similair. Never actually said Diablo was an RPG (although it IS officially known as an action role-playing game, and why argue with that?).

I do see people going ''Diablo isn't an RPG'' all the freakin' time, anyway. But then again, many of the same people call the Legend of Zelda series RPGs.

But to be honest, if we're talking actual role-playing; as long as you play the role of anything (for an example, a warrior), you're role-playing. It can be that shallow, but of course it can be way deeper as well. So technically, in every sense, Diablo is an RPG.

Let's get back on topic, though. Discussing how ''legit'' Diablo is as an RPG isn't very much so.

[onenpiepah]

Um, Diablo isn't quite an RPG. RPG is acronym for *ta-dam* Role-Playing Game. Not much of that in Diablo.

Not to get in a huge debate here, but I'm really getting tired of people being scolded for calling games like Diablo an "Action RPG."

This is Abandonia. We more than perhaps anyone else should be aware of the history of computer roleplay games. And the cold hard truth is that for years, the original CRPGs little of the "roleplaying" modern gamers have come to look back and define the genre with.

Wizardry. Ultima. These weren't choose-your-own-adventure books, where the player freely and often changed the outcome of the story through their actions. Early CRPGs took the setting and game mechanics of pen and paper RPGs, and not much else. Hitpoints and torches mattered more than dialog trees or choices and consequences. They were Role Play Games, emphasis on the game part.

It's sad that most of the original computer role-play games have been retroactively labeled "dungeon hacks" by modern gamers spoiled on the likes of Fallout.

If we don't count Diablo as an Action/RPG because it lacks choices and consequences, then we can't count any of the series that lead to modern RPGs in the first place. We have to live in a bubble, where there "were no" RPGs until the mid-90s, when Troika and Obsidian suddenly "invented" the genre.

It's just silly. :tongue:

[WolverineDK]

diablo totally doesn't equal roguelike

hack and slash with RPG and rogue elements thrown into the mix then ?

[Eagle of Fire]

It's just silly.

In Diablo II, there is no role playing elements whatsoever. You pick a character and are forced in the story without a care in the world about choices. In a way, you simply follow the story like an adventure game. Yes, you level your character... But having a leveling system doesn't automatically make the game a RPG.

This game have a solid story and there is more adventure elements in this game than role play elements. Yet, nobody calls Diablo II an adventure game. Why? Because it wasn't written on the box, because adventure games don't sell as well. RPG was written on the box however and, even if it is false, people caught on to it because of its popularity.

That is silly.

[_r.u.s.s.]

there is roleplaying elements, no matter how "cool" you try to act

and no adventure at all. stop using dictionary made up in your head

[Dino]

there is roleplaying elements, no matter how "cool" you try to act

and no adventure at all. stop using dictionary made up in your head

Agreed, Diablo is an RPG. Maybe not as deep as some others, but it still is an RPG.

Simoneer and onenpiepah have written brilliantly my exact thoughts, so I won't repeat what they said.

And also I agree that Diablo doesn't resemble roguelikes much.

[Chris]

Don't know if it is "cool" or whatever, but there's a point in what EoF is saying here. If you take the pen-and-paper approach, the Diablo series is not really a RPG. It is correct, that you are forced into a preset story - a good one, admittedly. On the other hand, the game has some typical RPG elements. You level your character, improve his stats and decide what path of the ability tree you want to go. These are all adapted from the CRPG world. And yes, there are action elements in the game. Compared to older titles, you don't get the typical step-by-step movement, but some kind of real time running and bashing monsters. So maybe it's an Action-RPG with an Adventure-like story?

Let's just call it a crossover - in case of Diablo, it probably was the first big hit in a new direction . Anyway, it's a great game with many other titles following it's footprints. And that's what great games are about, isn't it?

It seems that you've got your debate, onenpiepah.. ;)

[Simoneer]

An Action-RPG is still an RPG, and mostly even more-so than an action game.

People were/are saying Diablo isn't an RPG at all, which is completely incorrect. In case you missed it, EoF said: ''In Diablo II, there is no role playing elements whatsoever.''

[Dino]

In case you missed it, EoF said: ''In Diablo II, there is no role playing elements whatsoever.''

Our EoF tends to be radical from time to time, you know? :D

[Eagle of Fire]

Yeah, well I exagerated slightly. Big deal. :rolleyes:

The point I was trying to bring in, because yes there is quite a long reasoning behind all this, is that the tiny RPG-like elements in Diablo and Diablo II are insignificant in comparison to other elements. Sure, let's call Diablo II an Action/RPG/Adventure/Puzzle/Strategy/Simulation/Arcade game then. It does have some elements of each genre, isn't? (And I won't take no as an answer... :rolleyes:)

Why is the game Dune branded as an Adventure game? The whole game consist of a Strategic view of the world in which you issue commands. But because the whole game resolve around the story taken from the books, its Adventure elements were deamed greater than the Strategic elements which were added simply to help further the main goal, which is to tell the story.

So why would Diablo II be an RPG title? No sense in this reasoning.

Whenever someone ask me what genre Diablo is, I always answer straightforward Action. And if they ask what kind of action game it is, I answer Hack & Slash.

Because it's the truth.

[Pex]

Ah, a good old 'Is Diablo an RPG?' argument :D I participated in a few of those and in the end settled down to call it 'Action RPG'.

Why? Well, it has more RPG elements than any other typical action game and at the same time has too much action to be a clasic RPG.

So, you can end your argument now and just agree with me ;)

[Szilvio]

It is a bit silly if we want to strictly classify games, RPG, advanture, whatever. Most of the good games has mixture of all classes. Eg: Good flight simulation game has mixture of simulation, RPG, and advanture.
I know, that producers had to classify them, but do we need it? :max:

[The Fifth Horseman]

Frankly, what defines RPG genre for me is the freedom of choice and being able to affect the plot.

If Diablo was an RPG, you would be able to:
* Join the forces of evil and lead them against the world of men
* Do different things with items than required to complete the quests - and possibly that may prevent you from completing them. Like reading the "Fungal Tome" or eating the black mushrooms.
* Find a different way of lifting King Leoric's curse
* Wear a goatman skin and bullshit the goat-things (you know what I'm talking about) into believing you're one of them
* Refuse to help someone. Or demand compensation in return for your help. Or refuse to be compensated for it.
* Slaughter all of Tristram on a whim. Just because you feel like it.
* Find a love interest in Gillian. Or perhaps in Adria.
* Instead of solving the problem of the poisoned well by killing demons, solve it by collapsing the cave they're in.

And so on. The only quest in Diablo where you have any choice is the one with the tavern sign, where you can either bring it to Ogden and get a magic trinket or bring it to a pack of demons and be attacked by them in return. Where, I ask, is the option to cleave the pack's leader through the skull and proclaim yourself the boss?

Now, let's take Fallout.
You talk to Killian and take the job of bringing proof against Gizmo.
You can talk to Gizmo and take the job of assassinating Killian.
If you feel like it, you can also just kill them both.

You can refuse to save Tandi from the Raiders.
Or you can demand compensation for it.

You can defeat the Radscorpions by killing them all.
Or you can do it just by collapsing the entrance to their caves.

You can leave the Ghouls to die with no water supply.
Or you can help them repair their water pump.

And on the list goes.
CRPG is not the same as regular role-playing, of course, where your choices are literally unlimited. But the ability to choose and the fact you will have to deal with the outcome of your actions sooner or later matters a real damn lot.

Let's take a look at Arcanum now.
King Praetor, the King Of Dernholm asks you to retrieve the taxes from the Mayor Of Blackroot. Talking with Dante (a rather bitter priest in the Sour Barnacle), he will offer to assist you. You don’t actually need him to solve any of the quests.

Talking with the Mayor, he has decided for Blackroot to align with Tarant. You can convince him to rejoin Cumbria by :

# Showing him the newspaper article found in Dernholm and telling him of the dangers of being in the middle of the conflict.
# Pick pocketing the taxes and then telling him you have got them. By doing this you show him that the guards are incapable of protecting him and he decides to rejoin.
# Retrieving his ceremonial dagger from the thieves (these can be found west of the train station across the river). He will rejoin if you return the dagger to him. To do this you can

# Kill them all and take the dagger
# Steal the dagger from them
# Buy the dagger for 300 gold (depending on your skills this can be negotiated down to 150 gold)
# Procure some Poison from Grunwalde (telling him you are going to use it on some orcs). This costs 100 gold.
# Steal item from the Hedgewizard for them (this is a small shack in the southern outskirts of town). You can either steal the small statuette from the locked chest using thief skills or make a deal with the Hedgewizard to double-cross the thieves (he gives you a scroll of create undead to do so).

Returning to Dernholm, you can accept your reward. If you have Dante in your party, you can give him the credit for returning the taxes and he will then rejoin the king.
This is role-playing.

If it was Diablo,
King Praetor, the King Of Dernholm asks you to retrieve the taxes from the Mayor Of Blackroot.
Talking with the Mayor, he has decided for Blackroot to align with Tarant. You can convince him to rejoin Cumbria by :
# Retrieving his ceremonial dagger from the thieves (these can be found west of the train station across the river). He will rejoin if you return the dagger to him. To do this you can
# Kill them all and take the dagger

[Pex]

I agree with that. I'm not saying that Diablo is a classic RPG, only that it has some RPG elements, that most of of action games don't, for which reason I decided to agree with calling it 'action RPG'. It's definitely more than hack&slash action game.

If anyone asked me to recommend a RPG for him, I would never go with Diablo. But if somene asked 'Do you know a RPG that doesn't have a really complicated level advance system or character creation and lots of action in it?' then Diablo would be my first choice.

[Simoneer]

In response to The Fifth Horseman: Yeah, you just described what YOU personally want in an RPG. That doesn't make Diablo less of an RPG, though. We all have things we personally want in any game. Personal freakin' preference. It doesn't... uh... ''factually'' affect anything.

I, for one, want to be able to make builds rather than having any attribute points distributed automatically. And yes, I want some freedom and choices (that covers a big area; Anything from being able to take different directions in the story itself to deciding if you want to kill someone or not).

I won't say Final Fantasy isn't an RPG because it lacks manual attribute point distribution, freedom, and choices, however. It's still an RPG. Or, by the modern definition: A JRPG. Still an RPG, though. And it has its depth, especially in the battles.



But that's just my view on things. Still, fact remains, your personal view on something doesn't make everyone else's view on them incorrect. Same goes for me, I suppose.

...I think I just led this arguement into a dead end.

Yeah. So let's end it.

[Eagle of Fire]

You've just lead the argument to your dead end by saying that Diablo is an RPG. Fifth quite expertedly demonstrated the contrary.

Diablo might be a game with small RPG elements in them, but like I brought in the debate, having some small amount of elements of another genre doesn't automatically turn the game into that genre.

I think the biggest obstacle in making people realize that Diablo is not an RPG is the fact that so many people think that Diablo started a new genre of game. It wasn't the case at all. All the Rogue-like games made in the past were exactly the same thing, and done so long before...

But the main "argument" against that is more often than not: but dude! Rogue-like don't have graphics in them!

So what?

[Simoneer]

Just because they're (seemingly) retarded, not all are. That is all I can say. The rest, I've said already. You hardly brought anything new into the subject.

I think the biggest obstacle in making people realize that Diablo is not an RPG is the fact that so many people think that Diablo started a new genre of game. It wasn't the case at all. All the Rogue-like games made in the past were exactly the same thing, and done so long before...

What? First *like everyone* are claiming it to be an RPG, and now... most say it's a new genre... of game? Eh? You just turned the whole arguement into an arguement about something completely different. Now people are not calling it an RPG, which this whole arguement has been about, but rather into something about how it started a then-new genre even though it didn't... Okay, wasn't the ''Diablo is not an RPG'' good enough? Or did the whole thing just vanish? Somehow?

I am downright confused right now. I probably read some stuff wrong.

Sorry if coming off offensive, btw. Did not intend to.

[Eagle of Fire]

It is not because you are smart enough to understand how ridiculous it is that most people who don't know better do...

Some people just believe anything which is written somewhere without an afterthought :tongue:

[Simoneer]

The first thing there... Well, I have no idea what you're trying to say. The latter, however... Agreed. To. The. Max.

[Eagle of Fire]

What do you not understand exactly? I was simply saying that may people just don't know better and don't understand how or why either.

For the second point, I was refering to the fact that it is written on the Diablo box itself that it's a RPG, as well as the fact that it is praised as a RPG too when it is obviously not...

[Simoneer]

Oh, okay.

About the second point: While I know you were referring to that, I agreed with that people do indeed believe anything written on a box.

Still standing my ground on the Diablo arguement, however.

[The Fifth Horseman]

In response to The Fifth Horseman: Yeah, you just described what YOU personally want in an RPG. That doesn't make Diablo less of an RPG, though. We all have things we personally want in any game. Personal freakin' preference. It doesn't... uh... ''factually'' affect anything.
Let's approach the matter from a different angle, then: what makes Diablo an RPG?
Apart from the sticker on the box. :p

I, for one, want to be able to make builds rather than having any attribute points distributed automatically.
Customization isn't restricted to the RPG genre, however. Neither is having an experience/development system.

And yes, I want some freedom and choices (that covers a big area; Anything from being able to take different directions in the story itself to deciding if you want to kill someone or not).
My point is that in the roleplaying genre, the action elements are at best secondary.
Consider the very source of the name: Role Playing. Playing a role. That in itself indicates that the "gameplay" is plot-driven and the defining part is the "player" experiencing the setting and storyline, as well as the way he interacts with them.

I won't say Final Fantasy isn't an RPG because it lacks manual attribute point distribution, freedom, and choices, however. It's still an RPG. Or, by the modern definition: A JRPG. Still an RPG, though. And it has its depth, especially in the battles.:doh:
But by that definition, a game lacking combat element would not be an RPG.
Altough the popularized simplified view of role-playing aims to identify it with an experience system and character statistics, that definition is wrong. Both elements are undisputably common in the genre, but by no means define it.

You could take Fallout, throw out the combat and still have a role-playing game. You could do the same with the experience system and even the stats, and the game would still remain an RPG.

You could take Diablo, throw out the combat... and have what, exactly?
Going around, talking to people using pre-determined dialogue lines and bringing them items they asked for?
That, my friend, would not be role-playing but an adventure game.
Truth is that Diablo is defined by combat - to exclusion of everything else - and lack of the player's interaction with the storyline.

[Tomekk]

Ok here's my opinion about Diablo:

It's a Hack N Slash/Action RPG. You can create your character, you level up, you get to increase a stat or get a new skill(Diablo 2 only). Then you do some quests whilst going through 16 levels of monster mayhem and then you defeat Diablo and game over, start on another difficulty.

An action RPG focuses more on combat then Role-playing elements, that's why you can't "ask for a reward" or "fall in love with an NPC."

If you want to do stuff like what Fifth said about Fallout or Arcanum then go play a CRPG, not an Action-RPG like Diablo.

Definition of an Action-RPG:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_role-playing_game

And CRPGs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_rpg

[Acethor]

I agree with Tomekk and everyone else in favour of Diablo 2 being an Action-RPG. Simply put, it is an ACTION GAME with ROLE-PLAYING elements.

The point I was trying to bring in, because yes there is quite a long reasoning behind all this, is that the tiny RPG-like elements in Diablo and Diablo II are insignificant in comparison to other elements. Sure, let's call Diablo II an Action/RPG/Adventure/Puzzle/Strategy/Simulation/Arcade game then. It does have some elements of each genre, isn't? (And I won't take no as an answer... :rolleyes:)


Excuse me, tiny RPG elements insignificant in comparison to other elements in Diablo? Are you trying to tell us that Diablo 2 has more PUZZLE or STRATEGY or SIMULATION or ARCADE in it than RPG???????????? You have got to be kidding me. You cannot call it any of those because the main elements in the game are:

1.ACTION (running,walking,fighting,clicking)

and

2.RPG (Character Selection/Customization*AKA ROLEPLAYING*,Stat Point Allocation+Experience Gain,)

NOT PUZZLE STRATEGY SIMULATION ARCADE OR ADVENTURE

a. Puzzle (Use your brain to uh, calculate how much damage a carver will do when your wearing some leather armor?)

b. Strategy (Use a Druid, summon a whole bunch of minions, and strategically command them through the battlefield? )

c. Simulation (What the heck?? Ok I guess... A theoretical religious medieval simulation where the devil comes down and kills everyone????)

d. Arcade (...no comment...)

How can you say that ANY of those above have MORE elements than RPG in Diablo 2?

AND......... I never even SEEN what it says on the box and yet I defined it ACTION-RPG from MY OWN EXPERIENCES.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some of you to accept... it is simply neither RPG nor Action it is an ACTION-RPG. It is silly to try to label games with EXACT genres and exact this and that and rogue-like/classic/blah blah blah...

If your too proud about it next time someone asks you just say "ITS AN ACTION GAME - WITH SOME RPG ELEMENTS (also known as an action-rpg."

[Chris]

RPG was written on the box however and, even if it is false, people caught on to it because of its popularity.


AND......... I never even SEEN what it says on the box and yet I defined it ACTION-RPG from MY OWN EXPERIENCES.


Just take a look ;)
It actually isn't written anywhere..

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/diablo/cover-art/gameCoverId,2599/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/diablo/cover-art/gameCoverId,2600/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/diablo/cover-art/gameCoverId,2601/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/diablo/cover-art/gameCoverId,2602/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/diablo/cover-art/gameCoverId,9085/

[TotalAnarchy]

There are only two genres: "the mental" (Yes, I gave it this name) genre and the "action" genre. The others are just clones or combinations of the two.

[Simoneer]

In reply to The Fifth Horseman:

Even if you don't affect the storyline you do play the role of a character, don't you? And with the online capabilities of Diablo 2, you can do ACTUAL role-playing in the chat. But then again, the same could be done with Counter-freakin'-Strike. So I suppose that doesn't count... at all. :hihihi:


And yeah, I guess I do stand corrected on some points here. But I think I'll turn to Acethor; It's an action RPG. Hence, it IS partly an RPG. Don't say it doesn't have RPG elements. Srsly guiz.

[gregor]

Frankly, what defines RPG genre for me is the freedom of choice and being able to affect the plot.


So where does in your opinion Ultima Underwolrd 1&2 fall then? or Arx fatalis. I kind of always thought of them as RPG. I thought they made them like that so they wouldn't be too static and dependant on "dices".

I can't put my finger on Mount and blade (since it wants to be all or nothing) or Boiling point with it's side missions.

meh.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Original thread has been copied and each copy trimmed. Please keep discussion on whether Diablo is or is not a role-playing game to this topic.

[Tomekk]

You forgot to add the ACTION-RPG option, because that's what the game really is.

[Simoneer]

Good choice in making a new topic about it. Hopefully it will keep my topic clean.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Tomekk: The question is not whether it is RPG or "Action-RPG" or an action game.
Either it's RPG, or it's not RPG. Tertium non datur.

If we don't count Diablo as an Action/RPG because it lacks choices and consequences, then we can't count any of the series that lead to modern RPGs in the first place.
Birds evolved from dinosaurs. Yet do we count dinosaurs as birds? :p

[Acethor]

I think you should change the question, since most of us never argued about it being an RPG in the first place.

And on a side note, "Birds evolved from dinosaurs" is not a fact. It is a theory that has never been proven which evolutionists believe in and consequently teach to children in schools all over the world.

The Theory of Evolution is not a fact.

[Tomekk]

I think you should change the question, since most of us never argued about it being an RPG in the first place.

And on a side note, "Birds evolved from dinosaurs" is not a fact. It is a theory that has never been proven which evolutionists believe in and consequently teach to children in schools all over the world.

The Theory of Evolution is not a fact.

I agree that we should change the question. Most noobs argue about it being an RPG or not, when it is an ACTION-RPG. (there is a huge difference)

[Acethor]

It would be in your best interest to change the question, since now we will all be forced to spitefully select "Yes, it is."

I actually haven't voted yet btw... still waiting.

[bar-kun]

It's not a classical cRPG in my opinion. I think Diablo series are hack 'n' slash for PC.

[onenpiepah]

Let's approach the matter from a different angle, then: what makes Diablo an RPG?
Apart from the sticker on the box. :p

I don't really know what more I can add here. Diablo has everything classic CRPGs have, minus turn-based combat. That was the major controversy upon Diablo's release -- that was the initial, "Is this really an RPG?" debate -- the combat. Action/RPGs like Oblivion, Mass Effect and Fallout 3 weren't the norm, so any amount of action was held suspect.

The fact that you couldn't greatly affect the outcome of Diablo's storyline didn't bother people as much as the simplified classes and fast paced combat, because the memory of classic RPG series like Wizardry and Might & Magic were still fresh in people's minds. And like I've said before, the original CRPGs had little in the way of choices & consequences. All that came later, after some people began to retroactively hail Fallout as the "first" RPG.

So, again, if you care to define RPG as "Games made by Troika," more power to you. But a lack of choices and consequences doesn't disquality Diablo as an Action/RPG, it just gives it that much more in common with the original Wizardry, Ultima and Might & Magic games.

[Simoneer]

Booya.

[Wicky]

For me, a roleplaying game must have certain stats which don't change, give your hero a shape. A RPG warrior can be very strong, or especially agile, or have good charisma etc. which defines his characteristic.

So Diablo is not an RPG, you can increase your stats every level and guess what, all sorcerors for example end up looking like each other with 255 in magic. That means, they aren't anything special anymore.
Baldur's Gate for example is an RPG, because you will remember that thief, who was especially strong but dumb even after finishing the game, because he was unique. And that's what defines an RPG.

[Pex]

I would never dare compare Diablo to Baldur's Gate series :D

What you (correctly) pointed out is that diablo characters lack personallity. There are many other games for which most of us would agree are true RPGs that suffer the same problem. But that doesn't mean that other RPG elements don't exist in Diablo. Not that many to call it a classic RPG, but definitely enough to call it an Action RPG.

[Borodin]

It isn't an RPG. It's a dungeon hack with some numbers.

[Ironlion]

Not that I'm a Diablo fan (haven't played much of it), but I want something similair to play. An RPG with loads of action.... Preferably something that's available on this site.
Is there anything similair at all?

Rogue, and anything in those veins.

Also, the oft-forgotten sister site to Abandonia, Abandonia Reloaded (http://www.reloaded.org/) has Nethack, and also Lost Labyrinth, Doom the Roguelike, any one of these might be up your alley.

As far as the Diablo-style gameplay goes, well, Diablo was inspired by the Rogue, and the old games aficionados consider it to be a Rogue-like in spirit. :)

As to anything newer or on a technological par with Diablo, I don't think so.. Then you're moving into the territory of the proper RPG.

And no, I don't consider it to be an RPG...Diablo. and its computer game predecessors like Nethack and Rogue, are adventure games. They are adventure games with RPG style elements, in that your character can improve and get stronger as the game goes on, as well as collect new goodies and loot. But it is an adventure game.

In turn, the games like nethack and rogue are written in the spirit of Old Dungeons&Dragons. We're talking the early editions that came in boxes and let you play as an battling adventurer in a fantasy setting, which was in turn inspired by Tolkein and the folklore that inspired him, etc. Interestingly, the DND developers started out as war gamers. You might be familiar with Battletech, or at least know what it is; it is one of those myriad war games which emerged from war games designed in the 18th century to help officers in training to learn about strategy and tactics. So in a way, RPGs developed from wargames. ;)

D&D and similar games were not role-playing games, in the beginning. That happened because players added role-playing to the game on their own because it enriched the experience and added to the fun. Eventually, it became an integral part of the Pen & Paper RPG, to build a real essence to your character, to give it as much life as possible via the make-believe.

But the original game was about going into dungeons, fighting monsters, getting treasure, and saving the princess (and perhaps the world) from the evil wizard/demon/dragon/night/king/etc. It was about the adventure.

So no, these games are not RPGs, but rather represent a different evolutionary branch growing from the same tree trunk as RPGs.

[arete]

Please add a third option for this poll. :sneaky:

"Do I care?"

My answer would be no, not at all. LOL

[AlumiuN]

Please add a third option for this poll. :sneaky:

"Do I care?"

My answer would be no, not at all. LOL

+1

[Simoneer]

I just thought of something. Some people are saying the defining attribute of an RPG is to be able to take your own direction with your character and so...


Let me take Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars in for an example.

In this game, you can spend your time as a drug dealer, earning money and getting to the top through just doing that if you want to, hours upon hours - or you could do missions for someone. You can choose to betray your uncle by doing missions for other people that's against him. Hell, you can even choose to do firefighter missions to earn your cash to buy new things, or bust people as a police, or even help people as a medic, picking them up and driving them to the hospital.

Does that mean GTA: Chinatown Wars is more of an RPG than Diablo to you? O.o


I will always consider building characters (through leveling, getting better equipment, etc.) the RPGs' defining attribute.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Does that mean GTA: Chinatown Wars is more of an RPG than Diablo to you?
Yes. :p

[cjk1995]

I think that Diablo is a RPG game. But it is not important. Just enjoy !!

[Simoneer]

Yes. :p

:hihihi:

[The Fifth Horseman]

Freedom of choice is an important element to a role-playing game.
And just as you outlined, there's more of it in GTA:CW than in Diablo. :p

[Simoneer]

Yeah yeah. I suppose you have a point, anyway; To fully play a role you need to be able to make decisions, too...

[TheChosen]

Decisions like "What should I equip today", or "Should I raise strength or magic?". Really, If every RPG has to have "freedom", I'd like to point out that many old PC RPG's (or the console RPG's) have as much as much freedom as this one.

Two words: Dungeon Master

[red_avatar]

Decisions like "What should I equip today", or "Should I raise strength or magic?". Really, If every RPG has to have "freedom", I'd like to point out that many old PC RPG's (or the console RPG's) have as much as much freedom as this one.

Two words: Dungeon Master
TC: I made that point in Chatbox and there was no answer :p.

Eye of the Beholder
Lands of Lore
Ultima 1-4
Stonekeep
etc.

None are RPGs if we are to follow the strictest definition.

[Simoneer]

I was actually thinking about the Eye of the Beholder series alot during all this. If that classifies as an RPG, Diablo should as well.

[chainsoar]

In Diablo II, there is no role playing elements whatsoever. You pick a character and are forced in the story without a care in the world about choices. In a way, you simply follow the story like an adventure game. Yes, you level your character... But having a leveling system doesn't automatically make the game a RPG.

This game have a solid story and there is more adventure elements in this game than role play elements. Yet, nobody calls Diablo II an adventure game. Why? Because it wasn't written on the box, because adventure games don't sell as well. RPG was written on the box however and, even if it is false, people caught on to it because of its popularity.

That is silly.

You know what's really silly? Worrying about it so much. The way I see it is this - Diablo is a good game.

No, that's it, why do you need to know anything else?

[Simoneer]

People love to argue. ^^;

[Eagle of Fire]

Why would the game being good or not have anything to do with the matter?

Really shows how some people are way biased. How much would you be willing to bet that most people would not even care to have this discussion if this game wasn't worth playing?

True gamers don't bother with stupid elements such as success or popularity when taking sides or analysing games.

(Now, if I could just find the time to really get back into this argument... Working nonstop sucks. :p)

[AlumiuN]

True gamers also don't care what genre a game should come under. :p

[ianfreddie07]

Alu's right. :D

IMO Diablo is less fun if you constantly think "Oh, Diablo's not a RPG/is a RPG".

[Pex]

Alu's right. :D

IMO Diablo is less fun if you constantly think "Oh, Diablo's not a RPG/is a RPG".
Yep, I can see myself fighting the main boss (well, Diablo) and stopping to worry whether I'm actually RPing or not just for a few seconds and it gets me killed. It's my undoing every time :D

Btw, I know what you were saying ;)

[Eagle of Fire]

Maybe this debate would not be so pointless if there wasn't such "moronic" arguments like this.

Seriously, you guys really must be getting out of arguments to get something like this out. Who's thinking about a game genre when he's playing a game? And why would he care?

How about we get back on the subject at hand with real and intelligent arguments?

True gamers also don't care what genre a game should come under.
Ah, yes... I certainly would be buying a game branded as an oldschool adventure game anytime soon.

Not...

[TheChosen]

Getting little off-topic here guys. Besides, me and red already showed the hard facts, so stop complaining.

[Acethor]

This thread has been off topic ever since Fifth moved it and renamed it to "Is Diablo an RPG or not?"

[red_avatar]

And we still haven't gotten a response to why Lands of Lore and similar games would not be RPGs according to these "rules".

A genre doesn't have to strictly follow the name of that genre anyway. It's silly to assume Diablo can't be an RPG simply because it doesn't contain any role playing. Besides, "role playing" is a subjective term anyway. Since Diablo 1&2 could both be played online with others, how would you determine the fact that you can't roleplay inside your class? I remember quite a few people that were actually roleplaying online so even in that respect, there's still some roleplaying going on.

But anyway, my point was that genre names deceptive. Adventure games are considered games where you solve puzzles, talk to people and follow a story. But anyone who never played adventure games might label Tomb Raider, Indiana Jones, etc. as adventure games because of the "adventure".

Or how about RTS? Real Time Strategy games? Technically, UFO would become a RTS game as well, since a large part of the game happens in "real time".

And what about FPS? I mean, any combat flightsim is a FPS then because it happens in first person in the cockpit and you shoot. Or what about Morrowind - becomes a FPS as well.

Anyway, my point is that genres have evolved and don't even make any sense when it comes to their name. A RPG, by most, is simply a game where you gain experience, level up, get to pick up items, use them, sell & buy items.

Heck, or even simpler: for some an RPG is simply an adventure game with combat.

It's pointless to try and shut out a game from specific genre exactly because the meaning of genres are not laid in stone. Having said that, if you say Diablo is not an RPG, a LOT of other games are not either and then you either admit you're wrong in your definition or you admit those other games aren't RPGs either. You can't have it both.

[_r.u.s.s.]

Please add a third option for this poll. :sneaky:

"Do I care?"

My answer would be no, not at all. LOL

+1

then what are you doing in this topic. gtfo

that's just ego hunting out there

i apologize for the late reply but someone moved my previous post without the 2 connected posts into spam

[arete]

If we think it's a pointless argument, we have the right to say so. :max:

[AlumiuN]

then what are you doing in this topic. gtfo

Someone has to stop your arguing. :p

[Tomekk]

Maybe this debate would not be so pointless if there wasn't such "moronic" arguments like this:


Yeah, well I exagerated slightly. Big deal. :rolleyes:

The point I was trying to bring in, because yes there is quite a long reasoning behind all this, is that the tiny RPG-like elements in Diablo and Diablo II are insignificant in comparison to other elements. Sure, let's call Diablo II an Action/RPG/Adventure/Puzzle/Strategy/Simulation/Arcade game then. It does have some elements of each genre, isn't? (And I won't take no as an answer... :rolleyes:)

'Nuff said.

[Eagle of Fire]

My point if fully valid and nobody even came close to contest it so far.

I suggest you work on that instead.

[ianfreddie07]

Looks like you have to be always right anyway, anyhow. :p Kidding.

Anyway... IMO at times, Diablo is an RPG (Usually, I only see the RP-ing on the bosses, where you roleplay to save the world from doom) and at times, it's a crazy and fun action game. :)

[Eagle of Fire]

Nah, I don't have to be right. I'll simply always side where the arguments make the most sense.

If you can find a good way to get over my point, I'd be happy to hear it. And if it is really sound, then I'll agree. It's simple.

[red_avatar]

:doh2:

I wonder why it is that you want to keep arguing without first replying to a crucial question - the one I mentioned earlier:

IF Diablo is not an RPG at all (and frankly, it's been called an Action RPG for like 10+ years which is the real genre, but anyway) then what would you call Lands of Lore, Eye of the Beholder, etc. etc.

Or is this one of those "I'm right and you are not, but I'll ignore everything that makes me look wrong" kind of things?

[Eagle of Fire]

Well, to be frank I never really played Lands of Lore or Eye of the Beholder... They both looked and feeled like adventure games, and I hate adventure games.

But seriously, the real point of this little argument is to make people understand that a game is classified by it's domiment genre. It is extremely rare that a game have enough of several genres to be multi-classed. Usually a game clearly exhibit a given genre which overwhelm everything else.

In the case of Diablo, if you examine and analyse clearly what you do in that game, you simply walk around and kill monsters. There is no point mentionning that you have levels and stats to get up, no point in saying there is a story to follow, no point in saying it's part an adventure... Because it's all related to the core play. And if you look at the core of the game, the real main goal is to kill monsters to get loot to be able to be stronger to be able to kill stronger monster to be able to get better (stronger) loot to be able to kill even stronger monsters, ad nauseum.

It's clearly an action game. Or, more specifically, a dungeon crawl, a genre typical to Rogue-like and also Diablo by the fact that a dungeon crawl is exactly what I just mentioned in the end of the previous paragraph.

Now, I know that you will simply come back with a hundred of other games and ask "yes, but what about this game then"? To what I answer back: it depends of every game. There is no real standards to follow, it's all about analysing the game core actions and looking at what it really is or how it really plays.

We already said all that in this thread, btw.

[Acethor]

My point if fully valid and nobody even came close to contest it so far.

I suggest you work on that instead.

Wtf.... have you been watching this topic at all? You got pwned multiple times already. And your point has been proven invalid.

People don't kill monsters to kill stronger monsters to get powerful loot. They do it to LEVEL UP and INCREASE THEIR EXPERIENCE and GAIN SKILL POINTS. If all you did in Diablo was run around and kill monsters and pick up loot the game would be BORING AS SH!!!!!!!!!!!T.

And maybe you never played online before, but when your playing with 7 other players? It gets more interesting than just kill monsters to kill stronger monsters to blah blah blah blahhhhhhhh

[red_avatar]

In the case of Diablo, if you examine and analyse clearly what you do in that game, you simply walk around and kill monsters. There is no point mentionning that you have levels and stats to get up, no point in saying there is a story to follow, no point in saying it's part an adventure... Because it's all related to the core play. And if you look at the core of the game, the real main goal is to kill monsters to get loot to be able to be stronger to be able to kill stronger monster to be able to get better (stronger) loot to be able to kill even stronger monsters, ad nauseum..
Yes but that is why it's called an Action RPG in the first place. You may be killing a lot, but to do so, you need to handle the RPG aspects of the game, or you're going to be toasted in the higher difficulty levels. A normal action game does NOT have stats where you get fucked later on in the game, if you picked badly.

So yes, to me it's an RPG - an Action RPG. If the question was "it is a pure RPG", then no, it isn't. But then again, a lot of games aren't pure RPGs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_role-playing_game

[Simoneer]

My point if fully valid and nobody even came close to contest it so far.

I suggest you work on that instead.

Arrogant & ignorant much? :doh2:

[_r.u.s.s.]

lol you're new here aren't you

[Simoneer]

Indeed I am.

[Eagle of Fire]

Wtf.... have you been watching this topic at all? You got pwned multiple times already. And your point has been proven invalid.
That's not true at all. The main reason I haven't replied much to this thread is because I didn't have time to. But to think that my points have been "pwned" simply because I (or we) didn't care to reply is quite ridiculous. My points haven't been proved invalid at all, you think that they been proved invalid.

People don't kill monsters to kill stronger monsters to get powerful loot. They do it to LEVEL UP and INCREASE THEIR EXPERIENCE and GAIN SKILL POINTS. If all you did in Diablo was run around and kill monsters and pick up loot the game would be BORING AS SH!!!!!!!!!!!T.
Guess what? We are either not talking about the same game, or you don't know what you're talking about.

What about sets? What about socketed gems and especially runes and runewords? What about uniques? What about you can't even hope to survive in the higher level if you don't have high enough gear to support you, even less win?

Having you saying that equipment is not important in Diablo make me laugh... In Diablo, if you fight naked you are nothing: even the caster classes will get owned very easily because their mana level won't hold or they'll take a lucky hit and die because they don't have armor and enough HP. How about you try to kill Diablo naked or without resistance and a good weapon? The whole game is geared toward the fact that you are either an incredible killing machine, a spellcaster who never need to replenish his/her mana or an unkillable tank so you can survive the incredible amount of small ennemies thrown at you... A one man army.

And do we really need to bring again the fact that you can gain levels and assign skill points alone do not qualify for a RPG? In fact, a true RPG don't even consider if you have this option or not, it is simply way more interesting and fun to have an RPG using those. Otherwise you'd get bored quite fast since your character would never evolve with the story.

Yes but that is why it's called an Action RPG in the first place. You may be killing a lot, but to do so, you need to handle the RPG aspects of the game,
This is where your logic don't stand. What RPG element? Where exactly do you make a choice in the story of this game? The only choice you could have would be to do or not to do some very minor quests which are not related to the end story at all, more about overlooking unimportant aspects of the game. Beside the fact that those quests do bring you nice boosts, of course. Again, geared for items.

Leveling and stats are not exclusive to RPG. The story itself is not exclusive to RPG, adventure games is all about following a story. And by story, we are even already stretching the definition quite a bit for Diablo because the "story" is in fact several pages long discussion you get from talking from specific characters after every quest, if you even do speak to them. There is the nice video caps however, but even that is not exclusive to RPGs: you have that pretty much in any kind of games since they been implemented.

So, what part of the RPG aspects of the game you need to "handle" between the killing a lot and the killing a lot more? What, when you level you wait a bit to decide where to place the points? But all that planning have way more to do with strategy. You talk to every NPC there is in town? Where does that get you? Nowhere. Do you ever get a choice in the story of this game or have any kind of leeway to what to do and what not to do in the story or the way you want to achieve victory? None. It's all about fighting the minions to get to the boss, to get to the big boss and start all over again on higher difficulty.

Now, is it so bad that we can say that there is no RPG elements whatsoever in this game? No. Sure, there is a very small part of the game in which I grant happily to you that it looks like a RPG. But that tiny bit of the game is what? 5, 10% of the whole gameplay, of the whole game?

The RPG elements are insignificant in relation to others which are overwhelming, and that's why I say that Diablo is not an RPG and that's the point you guys never even began to contest. But then you accuse me of trying to be arroguant or whatever, assuming that you are in fact right.

The real reason why you guys been thinking you've been winning this argument have more to do with the fact that we'd be repeating ourselves over and over, unchallenged. I'm still waiting.

[Simoneer]

This is where your logic don't stand. What RPG element? Where exactly do you make a choice in the story of this game?

RPG doesn't translate to ''make a choice in the story''.

Leveling and stats are not exclusive to RPG.

No, because games of other genres have adapted it. :doh2:


:o Wait a second. Did I just take a walk into the bathroom and put my head in the toilet?

Call me Mr. Metaphor. >.>

[red_avatar]

So, what part of the RPG aspects of the game you need to "handle" between the killing a lot and the killing a lot more? What, when you level you wait a bit to decide where to place the points? But all that planning have way more to do with strategy. You talk to every NPC there is in town? Where does that get you? Nowhere. Do you ever get a choice in the story of this game or have any kind of leeway to what to do and what not to do in the story or the way you want to achieve victory? None. It's all about fighting the minions to get to the boss, to get to the big boss and start all over again on higher difficulty.
Let's take a look at Eye of the Beholder & Lands of Lore

- a simple story
- even less stats than Diablo
- killing & killing
- a simple store where to sell & buy potions and weapons
- no chance to influence the story
- linear
- a boss at the end

So, again, are you saying these games are not RPGs either? You've been avoiding answering me for several pages now.

[The Fifth Horseman]

How exactly, does sticking on an experience system automagically turn any game into an RPG?
Also, what really matters: what a game is labeled as on the box, or how it actually plays?

[Eagle of Fire]

You've been avoiding answering me for several pages now.

As I said, I didn't play with those games and I don't even know them. I remember my brother playing Land of Lore, but I never could indulge myself to play it. I personnaly find it awfull, comparing it to an adventure game.

The bottom line though, is that we're talking about Diablo. Not Land of Lore. I have no problem with saying that that other game is not exactly what it is labelled to be if that's the truth... But you won't be able to have confirmation from me, since I don't know it.

I know Diablo and Diablo II very well, however. I own my own copy of Diablo II and I like it very much.

[TheChosen]

Im going to have to start this whole thing all from the top.

First of all, Diablo is an RPG. Its not an adventure game, since there's no actual puzzles or deep interaction with anything. It has action elements, being fast-paced slaughter-fest. It has RPG elements like levelling up, equipping, quests and all that. So? Action RPG. I've myself said many times that its the lovechild of Rogue/Nethack and Gauntlet.

There's many types of RPGs, some traditional, some way hardcore (with interaction) and some bare-boned with only stuff like stats. Considering that this all started because Horseman had different view on "what exactly is RPG game", with him thinking that its not an RPG if it doesnt have any interaction, you should not consider game as an RPG by sticking into a one view. Seriously Horseman, If you think of that, then why games that have elements similar to Diablo are listed in Abandonias RPG section? *cough*DinkSmallwood*cough*

Again, Eagle is still ignoring the fact that other popular games that are called RPG share similarities with Diablo. The fact that you havent played those doesnt justify that you cant be wrong (just lacking knoweledge).

[ianfreddie07]

I second Chosen's statement. :)

Even though Diablo's RPG elements are bare-bones, they're still elements. Combine this with fun action, and voila. Action RPG, with more emphasis on action. You can still roleplay as being the savior of the world even if it's linear in its approach. You still do it. There's the RPG for you. But then it only goes so far...

Though I don't know if my post was of use. I have a feeling this will be contradicted and another round of posts come up. :p

[Simoneer]

Also, what really matters: what a game is labeled as on the box, or how it actually plays?

You won't ever get over that, will you?

Besides, as far as I know, the Diablo boxes says nothing about them being RPGs. Do they?

[Kugerfang]

Actually, Diablo is an post-modern/cubist interpretation of the classic dungeon crawler, combined with some avant-grade elements to make a completely new expressionist work of art.

[red_avatar]

This discussion is so silly, imagine it would be about another subject:

person A: that car is NOT a Diesel car

person B: well it IS, it uses Diesel to drive but it's a hybrid and can also use an battery.

person A: it is NOT a Diesel car! If you open the hood, it looks too different from a Diesel car and it's made to be ecologically friendly! Diesel cars aren't ecologically friendly!

person B: but it IS a Diesel car! You put diesel in it, you drive! But it's also a hybrid so it's not *just* diesel

So yeah, this discussion is just as stupid as that one. A hybrid diesel car is STILL a diesel car. An action RPG is STILL an RPG. It's not a pure RPG nor is the car a pure Diesel car. It just mixes elements from another design. End of discussion.

[ianfreddie07]

Ditto. :)

[Acethor]

Having you saying that equipment is not important in Diablo make me laugh... In Diablo, if you fight naked you are nothing: even the caster classes will get owned very easily because their mana level won't hold or they'll take a lucky hit and die because they don't have armor and enough HP. How about you try to kill Diablo naked or without resistance and a good weapon? The whole game is geared toward the fact that you are either an incredible killing machine, a spellcaster who never need to replenish his/her mana or an unkillable tank so you can survive the incredible amount of small ennemies thrown at you... A one man army.

What the hell... don't put words in my mouth. Did I say equipment is not important? I said Diablo is not all about killing monsters to kill stronger monsters etc.


And do we really need to bring again the fact that you can gain levels and assign skill points alone do not qualify for a RPG? In fact, a true RPG don't even consider if you have this option or not, it is simply way more interesting and fun to have an RPG using those. Otherwise you'd get bored quite fast since your character would never evolve with the story.

Whats all this about true RPG? As far as I'm concerned - RPG means ... ROLE. PLAYING. GAME. Which is very much possible in Diablo 2. Of course its not the MAIN element of the game, but it IS there.


This is where your logic don't stand. What RPG element? Where exactly do you make a choice in the story of this game? The only choice you could have would be to do or not to do some very minor quests which are not related to the end story at all, more about overlooking unimportant aspects of the game. Beside the fact that those quests do bring you nice boosts, of course. Again, geared for items.

Once again, RPG doesnt mean 'make a choice in the story'. RPG means ROLE. PLAYING. GAME .


Leveling and stats are not exclusive to RPG. The story itself is not exclusive to RPG, adventure games is all about following a story. And by story, we are even already stretching the definition quite a bit for Diablo because the "story" is in fact several pages long discussion you get from talking from specific characters after every quest, if you even do speak to them. There is the nice video caps however, but even that is not exclusive to RPGs: you have that pretty much in any kind of games since they been implemented.

So, what part of the RPG aspects of the game you need to "handle" between the killing a lot and the killing a lot more? What, when you level you wait a bit to decide where to place the points? But all that planning have way more to do with strategy. You talk to every NPC there is in town? Where does that get you? Nowhere. Do you ever get a choice in the story of this game or have any kind of leeway to what to do and what not to do in the story or the way you want to achieve victory? None. It's all about fighting the minions to get to the boss, to get to the big boss and start all over again on higher difficulty.

Now, is it so bad that we can say that there is no RPG elements whatsoever in this game? No. Sure, there is a very small part of the game in which I grant happily to you that it looks like a RPG. But that tiny bit of the game is what? 5, 10% of the whole gameplay, of the whole game?

The RPG elements are insignificant in relation to others which are overwhelming, and that's why I say that Diablo is not an RPG and that's the point you guys never even began to contest. But then you accuse me of trying to be arroguant or whatever, assuming that you are in fact right.

OMG, yet another false statement. Just go a couple pages back and you'll see I disproved your 'theory' about Diablo having SOoOO many other genres that are more dominant than RPG. Although I noticed that you now have dropped Puzzle and Simulation cause those were absolutely ridiculous. I think your problem lies in the fact that you are making up your own definition of Role-Playing-Game.


The real reason why you guys been thinking you've been winning this argument have more to do with the fact that we'd be repeating ourselves over and over, unchallenged. I'm still waiting.

Hahaha... I swear this is the funniest part of your whole incomprehensible and unintelligent excuse for a comeback.

TC also brought up a very good point about Dink Smallwood. Why is that game considered RPG and Diablo not? You can't choose any character at all, the game is mostly linear, has even less stat improvement (only 3 - strength, defense, and magic), and the list goes on. Wanna know why? It's because your ROLE PLAYING as Dink Smallwood - you go on quests, you kill monsters, you gain experience, and you buy items - much the same thing as you would do if you were playing a character in Diablo. Don't tell me Dink is just kill kill kill monsters, all you do is just kill as much as you can so you can kill stronger ones.

[Simoneer]

It seems like Eagle of Fire is the definition of both arrogance and ignorance. I don't think there's a point in arguing with him.

I very much agree with you, though.

[aarne]

Well, in my opinion Diablo is and it isn't role playng game.
It's my old favourite and I still play Diablo 2 on net.
Diablo is Hack'n'Slash maybe?

[Eagle of Fire]

Well, it really been a very long time since I've read so much crap in a thread... Fortunately, I don't have time to get into another long winded post. Working so much tend to get the energy out of you when it comes to stupidities like this. But there is one or two things I absolutely need to get back to...
Just go a couple pages back and you'll see I disproved your 'theory' about Diablo having SOoOO many other genres that are more dominant than RPG.
Yeah, right. You certainly did not. I remember I thought that I should not even consider replying to you about that because I thought it was quite pathetic to see how you managed to completely miss the whole point.

What was the point? The point was to make you realize that there is ONE very major genre in Diablo II, and many, many other very small genres. Like any other game. Like all the other games around. Why is that so hard to understand?

Let me explain my point to you again, in a simplier way: my thesis of my whole point is that if you want to pick a single minor part of a game and claim that it is part of a certain genre, you can do that with every single game in existence. Yes, there is puzzle elements in Diablo. What about those who had to find out the golden box formulas (damn, I'm forgetting the name of that item), or to find out rune words by trial and error or by searching for real rune words and trying them in the game? That is a, granted very minor, puzzle element. But it's still there! What about raising skeletons or minions and sending them to fight for you? Could that not be seen as a simulation? Very, very, very far fetched, I also grant you that... But the whole point, again, of my argument was that if you want you could flag every single game in existance with any genre instead of simply refering to it's main dominent genre. And if humanity as a whole did that, we'd simply end up with games which would be branded with almost all genres at the same time, just like Action/RPG/Adventure/Puzzle/Strategy/Simulation/Arcade...

And again, yes, I beleive that because you don't have a choice to make in the story (small or big) and because the other RPG-like elements which are strong in Diablo are not elements which are exclusive to RPG games, that there is more adventure elements in Diablo than RPG.

Thus, unless you manage to make me believe, with coherent and intelligent arguments, that there is more RPG elements in Diablo... I just have to stay on the logic side and continue to say Diablo II is not an RPG. Because in the end, all you do is follow a story to it's conclusion over and over again, like if you were reading a book, and that is typical and exclusive to adventure games.


-=-

The second point I'd want to get back to is in regard to when someone posted the covers of Diablo II and said it wasn't written that Diablo is an RPG game on it, a few pages back. I've forgotten to get back to that point yet.

I've never seen that cover of Diablo II before, and that most certainly have to do with the fact that I've never purchased the game when it got out but rather a few years after that. And it was written all over the box "RPG game of the YEAR!" and stuff like that.

It might have been stickers on the plastic wrap though. That would mean you could not see them on a scan after you open the box unless you keep that wrap... Which I can't understand why someone would keep.

[esgmaster]

I've never played Diablo, but Diablo is a action RPG, because:
Action:
1:You fight in real time.
2:Combat is always necessary.
RPG:
1:Customizeable stats.
2:You go on quests.
Now Diablo is not as customizeable as a most RPG, (we're not talking about a pen and paper RPG here.) but RPGs are about the character. If you don't think
Diablo isn't a RPG, than that means you're saying that all rogue-likes aren't RPGS.

[ianfreddie07]

Oh no. We're going to have an extension of Diablo debating... :pwnd:

[red_avatar]

And if humanity as a whole did that, we'd simply end up with games which would be branded with almost all genres at the same time, just like Action/RPG/Adventure/Puzzle/Strategy/Simulation/Arcade...

And again, yes, I beleive that because you don't have a choice to make in the story (small or big) and because the other RPG-like elements which are strong in Diablo are not elements which are exclusive to RPG games, that there is more adventure elements in Diablo than RPG..
You keep mentioning logic yet you seem to have it flying right over your head:

Genres naturally blend together a little but we usually assign the dominating genres to a particular game.

In case of Diablo, the dominating parts are combat and improving your character & gear (which is why you go into combat in the first place). Since RPGs contain both these traits but combat to a lesser extent, it became tagged as an action RPG - an RPG with focus on action.

All the rest is irrelevant. The "puzzles" are a tiny part of the game, but the RPG elements aren't. You need to trade a lot, you need to carefully build your character and you need to use weapons that fit your character build. Heck, you can ignore the Horadrics cube and finish the game. You cannot do that with the (RPG) stats so your argument is deeply flawed.

And it seems you're stuck with a broken record. You keep holding on to the flawed assumption that an RPG has ANYTHING to do with interactive stories. A lot of the earlier RPGs had no such thing - heck, they often didn't even have interaction with NPCs. Ever heard of such games as Nethack, which Diablo is based on?

[Kugerfang]

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/stfu-5460.jpg
@eof

[ianfreddie07]

Kuger, that's epic. :hysterical:

OK. If we were to put it in a percentage way, Diablo would probably be:

75% Action
20% RPG
5% other unimportant stuff. This is where Eagle's stuff comes in. :p

[Simoneer]

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/stfu-5460.jpg
@eof

I'm in love with that there picture.

[aarne]

EoF:What about those who had to find out the golden box formulas (damn, I'm forgetting the name of that item)

Maybe pandorras box xD
Actally it's horadric cube, lo0O0ove the runesword pwning online D:

Red_avatar: You need to trade a lot, you need to carefully build your character and you need to use weapons that fit your character build.

You can actally ignore that too and complete the game but it sure is gonna be difficult.

[ianfreddie07]

Wrong thread. :p

This is the discussion of "Is Diablo a RPG or not?" or it could also be called "Eagle of Fire vs. Everyone else" LOL

[red_avatar]

EoF:What about those who had to find out the golden box formulas (damn, I'm forgetting the name of that item)

Maybe pandorras box xD
Actally it's horadric cube, lo0O0ove the runesword pwning online D:

Red_avatar: You need to trade a lot, you need to carefully build your character and you need to use weapons that fit your character build.

You can actally ignore that too and complete the game but it sure is gonna be difficult.
No, it will be impossible. A poorly made character has no chance in hell to finish Hell :p.

[aarne]

dunno, finished hell in hell first time in 2005 maybe, and then i didnt watch my character build at all, randomly choosed "cool" skills, but i did it :)
my first char was sorceress :P

[Eagle of Fire]

This is the discussion of "Is Diablo a RPG or not?" or it could also be called "Eagle of Fire vs. Everyone else"

If you look up, you'll see the poll stating that 20 people says yes, and 16 people say no.

That's pretty eaven, don't you agree? :p

[ianfreddie07]

That's a poll. How about the member vs. member? :p

[Simoneer]

Self-centered as he is he probably sees that poll as ''Who agrees with Eagle of Fire?''.

No offense.

[Eagle of Fire]

I have a saying I love, which is "if the hat fits you then wear it".

Since I don't feel targeted at all, since it's so far from the truth it's actually funny to read, I don't feel offended at all...

[Simoneer]

Well, I wasn't aiming at what I said perhaps being true, but that you have an extraordinarily large ego. Or at least it seems like it.

But okay. Glad to be of amusement.

[red_avatar]

dunno, finished hell in hell first time in 2005 maybe, and then i didnt watch my character build at all, randomly choosed "cool" skills, but i did it :)
my first char was sorceress :P
No offense, but I don't believe that for a second - no way you completed hell without serious help. And with help, ANYONE can complete hell. I obviously meant that you had to stand your own and as a sorceress, there's no way of that happening unless you got the right build. Why? Because of immunities. Focus on fire, and you're screwed with fire immunities. Heck, even the best build doesn't stand a chance in hell on their own as a sorceress because you can only focus on two trees at once without becoming too weak so if a creature is immune to both trees, you're fucked.

So basically, you HAVE to assign the skills cleverly or you're toast. Hell has been made harder and harder over the past few patches and with the introduction of dual immunities, things are far from as easy as they were 6-7 years ago.

[aarne]

lol, i had no net connection and no patches that time xD i got the game as present in 2003 :)
Yeah, I remember my presents well.
belive it or not
I went to nightmare when i was lvl 56 xD god bless cowlevel :D

---------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Dug up my old savegames, my mistake, i didnt finish with sorceress, got stuck in hell xD
It was my paladin xD

[red_avatar]

lol, i had no net connection and no patches that time xD i got the game as present in 2003 :)
Yeah, I remember my presents well.
belive it or not
I went to nightmare when i was lvl 56 xD god bless cowlevel :D

---------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Dug up my old savegames, my mistake, i didnt finish with sorceress, got stuck in hell xD
It was my paladin xD
See ;). Also, if it was unpatched, it means the immunities never were in place yet. Even at level 85, you'd get your ass kicked in Hell when alone.

[Eagle of Fire]

You know, when I play in single player I type "/setplayers 8", and the difficulty automatically rank up to 8 players.

Best of both worlds. :)

[Acethor]

Should this thread be closed? Because the poll is done and the conclusion is:

Is Diablo a role-playing game or not?

Yes, it is.

Sorry EoF if you felt we were all targeting you and whatnot. We really aren't. We just want you to see the truth. Remove the wool from your eyes and be free like us! :hysterical: :tongue: :clap:

[Eagle of Fire]

Never! I'll never concede! I refuse to aknowledge that Diablo II is an RPG! :tongue:

Jokes aside, this "issue" been around for almost as long as the game existed... I really doubt you'll be able to bring it to an end only because a poll barely registered your side as the winning side.

If you want to be able to win by a noticable margin, try 80% instead of 56%. ;)

[ianfreddie07]

I guess he made a rush post... :p

[Tomekk]

The poll question is stupid, because the game is not a Pure-RPG, it's an Action-RPG! And I think we can all agree on that :whistling:

[Acethor]

Yes we all know the poll question is stupid but Fifth refuses to change it.

[Simoneer]

What's the point with a poll like this in the first place when we know it won't make people change their minds?

[Eagle of Fire]

The poll is perfect. It simply do not assess the specific question you would want it to.

Right now the poll is simply asking if you consider Diablo II to be a RPG at the base level.

Which also always been the point of this thread.

[Simoneer]

No, I mean... It just lead us nowhere.

[Eagle of Fire]

What would you propose then?

[AlumiuN]

An action-RPG is still an RPG. This isn't about whether Diablo is a PURE RPG or not. :p

[Acethor]

The poll is perfect. It simply do not assess the specific question you would want it to.

Right now the poll is simply asking if you consider Diablo II to be a RPG at the base level.

Which also always been the point of this thread.

The thread started originally with Simoneer asking for any other RPG games like Diablo 2. The very next post was Fifth contradicting him and saying it wasn't an RPG. Everyone (besides you and Fifth) said that it was an Action-RPG in the following posts and then eventually Fifth made a new thread with a poll asking "Is it an RPG or not?"

When in actuality no-one had ever asked if it was an RPG or not. A better poll question would have been: "What genre is Diablo 2?" With options for Action-RPG, RPG, Adventure, etc... and I bet we would have gotten at least 80% of the votes saying it was an Action-RPG.

[Simoneer]

What would you propose then?


Nothing. This whole arguement is stupid, which I have thought all long. I didn't start it, Fifth did.

I feel ashamed for having spawned this bullshit. It's just so silly. Not only is there no point in arguing about what genre a game is, but the people in here are like sooooo attached to their opinions, and are arguing about 2 contradicting things. It just can't work out. Most here aren't very reasonable at all. We've ended up bashing each other in one way or another. It's so unnecessary.


I agree with it being an action-RPG, though. And I also agree with what AlumiuN said... I think.

[El Quia]

Let's blow some shit up. That never gets old! And the emotion of seeing thing go up in flames could re spark the camaraderie lost in all this arguing. I propose we put fire to a gas station:hypno:


I don't think that Action-RPG makes much sense as a genre (I remember I used to refer to this kind of games, when I was a kid, as an "Arcade with character sheet" :D), but I'm not looking for arguing about this because it will lead us nowhere.

And I find that this kind of arguments, when involving some of this kind of games about which people feel strongly, usually leads to fighting, bad blood and stubbornness.

So now, let's all shake each other hand and agree to disagree. And blow some shit up :P

[Eagle of Fire]

and I bet we would have gotten at least 80% of the votes saying it was an Action-RPG.
It would be pretty stupid for the 44% of the voters who voted no to vote for Action-RPG, considering their choice.

What I'd expect from such a poll would be a result of about 30-50% in favor of various choices related to RPG (like Action-RPG), which would be the highest amount due to the so widespread belief that it is an RPG game... Largely due to the way the game itself was advertised, as I already pointed out earlier in this thread. Then the rest of the voters would be scattered around the rest of the choices, with a small amount of people voting Rogue-like for the simple reason that most people don't even really know what a Rogue-like is and Action being the second highest.

The thread started originally with Simoneer asking for any other RPG games like Diablo 2. The very next post was Fifth contradicting him and saying it wasn't an RPG.
You are talking about what is now two separate thread. They been split for obvious reasons. If you would have access to the MOD forum, you would be able to see that I requested the split myself... I don't see the point of this argument: there is no need to think that we are doing any kind of harm to the original thread nor to think that the whole issue started from it. IMHO, this issue is around since as long as I know the game exist, which is something between half a year and a year after it's original release... And for all I know, it must have started even earlier than that.

Me and Fifth simply happen to be strong believers of side which strongly believe that Diablo II is not an RPG. It is not the first time that I jump head first in such an argument, and as long as I do not firmly believe that I am wrong then it won't be the last time either. :p

For me it is really not a matter of arguing. It is a matter of seeking the truth, and what make me think this whole argument or crusade is worthwhile is the fact that so many people (who don't know better) firmly believe that Diablo II is a classic RPG game... And I also believe that those "so many other" are also in vast majority. (*sigh*)

Everyone (besides you and Fifth) said that it was an Action-RPG
We are obliviously not reading the same thread then. Many people voiced their oppinion against the idea that Diablo is an RPG, and many even said exactly what I said, which that Diablo II is in fact a graphical Rogue-like! ;)

[ianfreddie07]

Really? I thought you said it was something like "A graphical adventure/arcade/simulation/action/racing game with any genre other than RPG" or something. :p

[red_avatar]

We are obliviously not reading the same thread then. Many people voiced their oppinion against the idea that Diablo is an RPG, and many even said exactly what I said, which that Diablo II is in fact a graphical Rogue-like! ;)
... Except Rogue has been branded as RPG for 20+ years. Who are you to dispute that?

http://www.mobygames.com/game/cpc/rogue-the-adventure-game

See that genre? There's not even multiple ones. You'll have a very hard time finding any site that brands it as an arcade/action game which you claim it to be. And if Rogue is classed as RPG, why would a modern remake suddenly NOT be one?

[Acethor]

It would be pretty stupid for the 44% of the voters who voted no to vote for Action-RPG, considering their choice.

There may be people who voted "No it isn't" because they don't think it's a classic RPG... which is what the dumb poll question implies. I'm willing to bet you that the majority of people here would say Action-RPG. Maybe like 4 or 5 people would say other stuff. Why didn't Fifth just post a fair poll question in the first place? Because you guys are mods so you get to make the poll questions heavily biased?

Me and Fifth simply happen to be strong believers of side which strongly believe that Diablo II is not an RPG. It is not the first time that I jump head first in such an argument, and as long as I do not firmly believe that I am wrong then it won't be the last time either. :p

I am a strong believer of the opposite. But at least I can compromise by agreeing with you that its not a classic RPG. But you can't even compromise a tiny bit by agreeing that Diablo II has enough RPG elements in it to be branded 'Action-RPG'. Shouldn't we try to find some solution that everyone is happy with?

[Eagle of Fire]

... Except Rogue has been branded as RPG for 20+ years. Who are you to dispute that?
I don't, and I have no idea why you would think so. I never said that Diablo II = Rogue. It's not even the same genre, considering what Diablo II is.

Rogue is an RPG because it has strong RPG elements. The similarities between Rogue and Diablo II is not the RPG but the dungeon crawl element. Which is: roam a dungeon or map, kill monsters, get XP and way more importantly loot, repeat ad nauseatum.

The dungeon crawl element is what define Rogue-likes. I've played plenty of Rogue-likes with no RPG elements whatsoever.

Because you guys are mods so you get to make the poll questions heavily biased?
Why is it that everytime you seem to be getting in a nice direction you always have to blow it up with nonsense? I don't even want to answer to this.

Remember, it's not because you're paranoid that we're not looking for you! (Or something... :rolleyes:)

I can compromise by agreeing with you that its not a classic RPG. But you can't even compromise a tiny bit by agreeing that Diablo II has enough RPG elements in it to be branded 'Action-RPG'. Shouldn't we try to find some solution that everyone is happy with?
You assume that I am looking for a solution that everybody would be happy with. I don't, and I'm not stupid enough to think there is even one. Like in politics, there is no solutions which everybody without exception would be happy with. The worse politicians are those who believe that, for they always try to appease everybody and always fail miserably every single time.

What I really do is seek the truth. Even if in the end I would be the one unhappy about it.

[Acethor]

Why is it that everytime you seem to be getting in a nice direction you always have to blow it up with nonsense? I don't even want to answer to this.

If the truth kills, let it kill. It's pretty obvious why you don't want to answer. I noticed your reaction for most of our 'nonsense' is that you just 'dont wanna answer'.


You assume that I am looking for a solution that everybody would be happy with. I don't, and I'm not stupid enough to think there is even one. Like in politics, there is no solutions which everybody without exception would be happy with. The worse politicians are those who believe that, for they always try to appease everybody and always fail miserably every single time.

What I really do is seek the truth. Even if in the end I would be the one unhappy about it.

You are stupid if you think there isn't one. Because there really is a solution we can all be happy with, but you just don't want to make it possible. And this is not like politics at all. Its more like everyone telling you facts, and you holding your hands to your ears and saying 'I don't wanna answer'. If you seek the truth, then give it a chance for gods sake. I'm not even asking you to accept anything we're saying here at all! I'm asking you to open your mind to others' ideas. What your saying essentially is that there is no solution and you don't care to even try to to work out a solution. You just want to keep arguing about Diablo 2 forever?

[Eagle of Fire]

If the truth kills, let it kill. It's pretty obvious why you don't want to answer.
Yeah, the truth is that you have so nothing to say that you go even as far as to call a paranoia theory about mods pulling strings around such a pointless poll.

Why don't you just create your so prized poll instead of hiding in a hole in fear of what might actually happen? :rolleyes:

[Acethor]

It's not a paranoia theory; its a fact. Fifth was biased already against it being Action-RPG, so he created an unfair poll.

Hiding in my hole of fear? My god does it look like I'm scared here? I told you already I'm completely confident that if we had a proper poll ACTION-RPG would take the cake. I don't really want to create a new poll because UNLIKE YOU I want to find a workable compromise for everyone so that we can end this dumb argument! I was just saying that IF this poll had the right question the odds would have been stacked in Action-RPG's favor.

I have nothing to say? You're the one who doesn't wanna answer anything!!! O.o

[ianfreddie07]

Ack. Can't we just:

:closed:

This already and accept the fact that Diablo is an ACTION RPG?

[aarne]

and the neverending fight continues...:hihihi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCx_QsiMBU0&feature=channel_page

[Eagle of Fire]

and accept the fact that Diablo is an ACTION RPG?
No, 'cause it's not an RPG. And it's not the pitiful defense I've seen so far which will make me change my mind...

[ianfreddie07]

Oh well. :suspicious:

[AlumiuN]

Can someone close this please? I think this is getting silly, purile and out-of-hand.

[red_avatar]

Well seeing as the argument is not going anywhere ...

[Lulu_Jane]

It's not going on anymore here, but it is over here (http://www.abandonia.com/vbullet/showthread.php?p=364820#post364820) :)