The Lemming

[Onyx]

I belive everyone here knows about Lemmings. I have this idea for a game.

In this game you would control a single lemming. And I mean you would really control him with arrow keys, not clicking. You would have to pick up icons that give the lemming a certain ability. E.G. in original Lemmings you could clik on that "stairs" icon, click on a lemming and he would start to build stairs. In this game you would have to collect the "stairs" icon and it would appear in your, let's call it that way, inventory. When you need this ability you would choose it in the inventory and your lemming would start building stairs. So, at the beggining of the level you would have empty inventory, or maybe some items allready in it, and you would have to figure out a way to get to the exit.

Also, I was thinking about the "Lost Vikings" style game where you would have few lemmings with predetermined abilityes and you would have to switch beetween them to complete the level.

Do you like the idea? Which concept do you like more?

[guesst]

I say keep us posted and tell us how it goes. Call it Lemming. No 's'.

[Onyx]

@guesst- look at the topic title ;)

and what do you like more: one lemming or the "Lost Vikings" concept? I guess it's one lemming considering your title proposition but gotta ask anyway

also, can anyone help me with some sprites? I would like to have main character look like on those icons in original game (ones at the bottom of the screen) but I suck at graphics and there's NO WAY I'll be able to animate them

oh well, I'll rip the original sprites if I can't get any better...

also, I don't think all the original abilityes from Lemmings will be included so vote for your favourites ;)

[Moonstrider]

I'd be happy to help with some sprites.

The concept sounds a bit like lomax. Ever played it ?
I like the idea of it being more "Lost Vikings"-like and more puzzles instead of the straightforward platform game style of lomax. It didn't really live up to the other lemmings games because it wasn't really that much puzzles in it.

It could be cool to have more lemmings too, and have it more in the style of Lost Vikings. In that case you could group the different actions to different lemmings. One lemming could have actions like dig and hack while another could have climb and maybe carry other lemmings as a new feature.

It really sounds like a cool concept anyway, so I'd be happy to help out. :)

[#BlakhOle#]

Well a new game is always welcome in my books, even if it is a kind of copy ;) I can even think of a sort of story for the one lemming idea. When all the other lemmings were finding home, one lazy lemming slept in, missing the congregation. He woke up to find everyone gone and him left all alone. Now he has to find his friends again, with a bit of help from the other lemmings (the ability pickups or whatever). Help him find his way back home and to all his friends, so this story can have a happy ending :) Ok maybe not the most original of stories, but come on, i just made it up then. Anyways id like to see how it comes out, keep us posted :)

[Onyx]

Thanks for feedback everyone!

@Moonstrider- check out some screenshots of PSP version of lemmings. Do you think you could make animated sprites of lemmings in that quality?

@#BlakhOle#- acctualy... that was my idea for a story too :P

Ok, keep the ideas flowing. I'll start working on a basic engine mid-next week so the more ideas I gather until then the better (this way I won't have to change the engine if someone suggests something good).

[Jordan]

That would be an awesome idea. :D

[Moonstrider]

@Onyx
You mean the lemmings on the buttons or the ingame small ones ? I guess I could do both...

[guesst]

So can you actually program this thing? A proof of concept would be a good thing. Actually, it would probably help developing the concept.

(And I did notice the name after I came back.)

[Onyx]

Allright, I don't have time to do anything now BUT I managed to whip out an old source file I made when I was first thinking about this.

so, you can download it HERE (http://free-kc.t-com.hr/onyx/the_lemming_engine.zip) (just left-click the link)

not much to see here (if anyone complains about graphics... well, you're right :P )

so:

Left/Right Arrow Keys- move
1 (number 1, NOT NUMPAD 1!)- jump ability
2- sprint ability
3- climb ability
4- no ability
Space- perform action

so, press 1, 2 or 3 to activate ability and then space to perform it.

note: to climb you must be close to wall and facing it.

oh, yeah, and you can fall off the screen... try not to... if you do, well, close the game and start over

so, no "icon collection" or anything like that yet, but this is the basic idea.

[guesst]

Okay, much love for "the lemming" now. Sure it's a crap demo, in lots of ways, but that crap demo puts it ahead of 20 other wannabe fan made games that never even get that far. Now I have hope for the project.

So the idea is this: a platform-puzzle game where you use icons you've collected to get through the level. Hmmm. Hmmm. Not bad. I assume an average level would run like: Use build icon to reach umbrella icon and a build icon.
Use umbrella icon to reach another build icon and a climb icon.
Use climb icon to reach dig icon and one more build icon.
Use dig icon to reach last build icon.
Use all build icons to reach exit.
While the premise is solid it seems to me not enough.

Usually I don't like the violent-ing of games but give this a try. The single lemming is all alone and a ugly lemming eating monster is after him. The object of each level is to find a way to thwart the monster. Either you need to dig away the pillars supporting the monster so it falls or load up a catapult and fire it, or build the catapult, or something. Beat the monster, move on, oh darn it there's another monster, or the monster recovered and followed you. Puzzles would me made harder then by having the monster's rantings rain boulders on you in the cave or have it's giant fist occasionally smash through the ceiling. Take too long to beat the level and the lemming eating monster gets you.

Nothing so blatent as picking up a rocket launcher and blasting it. Keep it light, keep it fun. More like a fusion of Donkey Kong and the lemming. Maybe there could be a level where the object is to reflect a cannonball to where the monster will appear, or rig up a chandeleer to fall when the monster gets to a certian point.

I'm just brainstorming ideas here. But keep us posted as the game develops.

[Onyx]

Well, finally some brainstorming!

Ok, first my look on some points made by guesst:

Yes, the game WOULD be boring if there were no enemies. But I was thinkin about focusing on avoiding/trapping enemies rather then figthing them. Also, I don't like the idea of a single "uber" monster "to rule them all" (pun intended :P ). As I said, the REAL work starts next week.

Now, Moonstrider:

Basicaly I would need the buttons in a bit higher resolution AND each of these buttons in animated form (e.g. single frame showing lemming digging for the button and animated one for the game). Try making a simple walking animation first (something in the means of 32x64 or so) so we'll discuss this further. And, thank you for being so ready to do it. :ok:

Also, one thing Moonstrider mentioned gave me an idea.

It could be cool to have more lemmings too, and have it more in the style of Lost Vikings. In that case you could group the different actions to different lemmings. One lemming could have actions like dig and hack while another could have climb and maybe carry other lemmings as a new feature.[/b]

So, what if you could lead one lemming FAMILY. Consider them as Erik, Baleog and Olaf from "Lost Vikings". Every one can do something that no other can. But, here's the twist: let's say that you have a lemming called Lemmy. At first level Lemmy can dig. But, after you finish few levels he learns how to make tunnels (dig horizontaly). This eliminates "icons" but still refreshes the game every few levels.

Thoughts?

[#BlakhOle#]

Thinking... :angry: (intense thinking, not angry :bleh: ) Well they'd have to have pretty contrasting abilities, but if theres just three that shouldnt be too hard. If one dug, one would have more go-uppy sort of abilities, building stairs or climbing, and the other could be miscellaneous abilities, self-destruct or whatever, cept i dunno how you're going to get self-destruct to work if you need them all to survive... :unsure: Just trying to think of all the lemmings abilities here...

1. dig (vertical dig)
2. pound (horizontal dig)
3. pick (diagonal dig)
4. umbrella
5. climb
6. stopper
7. builder
8. selfdestruct

Well you could just about rule out stopper and selfdestruct, and if the digger is going to be learning the new abilities later on youve got umbrella climb and builder to work with. I think if you'll have three each lemming should each have at least three abilities by the end, so you'll have to do some brain storming on new abilities, speed maybe. Anyways just trying to help, tell me if you think of anything.

[Onyx]

Allright, after much brainstorming this is wht I came up.

First of all, I think I'll ditch "single lemming" concept. So, think more "Lost Vikings".

Story:

Nothing complex here: three young lemmings which have not yet learned all things adult lemmings know were playing in the woods and when they came back all other lemmings were gone. Now they have to go on their journey alone...

Game mechanics:

You command three lemmings. You can switch beetween them just like in "Lost Vikings". In the game they will have names, but for now we'll call them "scout, "Builder" and "Enigineer". These names are not the best but they'l do for now.

Lemmings:

SCOUT

Abilityes:

1) Jumping - not much to explain here
2) Sprinting - imagine those rocks that can crush you in "Super Mario". In some sections the only way to survive those is to sprint.
3) Climbing - what else can I say?
4) Rolling - for those narrow spaces he has to cross and you can't dig a tunnel (either it's metal or digger is not around)
5) Shimmying - he can grab bars above his head and move over gaps using that.

Description:

He's your guy that can go allmost anywhere. You'll use him to get to all that hard-to-reach switches
(you didn't think you can make a game like this without switches did you?)

BUILDER

Abilityes:

1) Digging - vertical digging
2) Pounding - horizontal digging
3) Picking - diagonal digging
4) Buliding stairs - well, duh!
5) Building bridges - same as stairs but it goes horizontally (I can't remember if this exsisted in "Lemmings)

Description:

Well, "Scout" can get allmost anywhere but other two can't. He'll be your guy that makes paths for everyone else.

ENGINEER

Abilityes:

1) Umbrella - to fall from great heights without being killed
2) Bomb setting - "Builder" can dig throught soil, but this guy can blow up rocks and things like that.
3) Swinging - he can use grappling hook

Description:

Before you start screaming that he has only 3 abilityes while others have 5 read on! First of all he's the only one that can control complex machanisms (everyone can activate simple switch beu he is the only one that can control e.g. a crane that can move objects or caryy lemmings across gaps). Also, you can't make a bridge across every gap (your bridge has maximum length it can reach, if you don't reach other side with the bridge it will collaps). Also, in "Lemmings 2" there are kanu and magic carpet. Everyone can enter them, but "Engineer" is the only one that can "drive" them.

So, comments?

EDIT: Oh, yeah, each lemming will have 1 or 2 of his abilityes when you start the game. They will gain their other abilityes as you reach certain levels (levels of the game, not levels of the character like in an RPG)

[velik_m]

nice...

hope you make it.

also be sure to make a handy editor, so people can add their own "puzzles".

[Onyx]

@velik_m: yes, I plan to do that, don't worry ;)

[guesst]

Looking at your layout for who gets what abilities, I say that's looking good. So are you still going to have the icon collection/dispursion?

Now this is so much like "The Lost Vikings" that I would recomend dumping the lemmings. I'm not saying to go Viking either. Think of something original. Something totally new. Like robots or cyborgs (megaman-like, again keep it light) and their abilities are chips that allow them to do certian functions. Plus that will allow you to branch out to non-lemming abilities.

So does each "lemming" have a set number of icons they can use in a level, they just start with a stock of this one has __ of this, __ of that, and that one has __ of the other thing? Or is their abilities unlimited. Can they trade icons?

[Onyx]

@guesst:

If do it this way icon collection is out. Every Lemming has his own abilities he CAN'T trade- that's what he can do and that's it. I was thinking that they should start the level with predetermined number of each ability: this way you can't allways complete levels the way it's easyest, you need to save your abilities as much as you can.

And I would still like them to be lemmings: they're cute, everyone is familiar with them and I think people will enjoy playing this game with known characters, known levels (at least by their looks) but still in a different game. This is a risc too, offcourse, but I'm willing to take it.

And yes, it looks alot like Lost Vikings, but I thinked about whole lemmings thing and you know, lemmings would now be lemmings if they didn't cooperate, so this is a bit more natural way of playing it.

[Data]

It sounds a bit like
http://www.abandonia.com/games/en/279/FuryofFurries.htm
Maybe you can use it for some inspiration.

[Moonstrider]

Wow. Alot of good ideas here now. I'll see what I come up with for an animation as soon as possible.

I vote for keeping it in the lemmings universe too. I like look and feel of it a lot.

And btw, I don't think we need to come up with a lot of new moves. I just played lemmings 2 (strangely enough I've never played it before until today) and there are a lot of abilities that could be useful there. The builder could have the filler ability for example. And maybe swimming for the scout. And maybe a military class for some of the weapon skills if there are going to be enemies around, although this would drift a bit away from the puzzle idea of the original lemmings.

There are descriptions of different skills from lemmings 2 here by the way, lots of inspiration :) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_2:_The_Tribes

[Onyx]

@Moonstrider - good point about the builder :ok:

Also, you could take that picture from wikipedia and work on animating that. I'll see if I can get higher resolution picture playing around with SNES emulator.

I don't want weapons in it but this list gave me some new ideas. What if you could pick up "magical flute" (attractor skill (I finaly fond a better word: SKILL)) and use it to drive enemy to a spike pit or something like that?

Also, some skills like slider could be done so they work like in lemmings, but you have to execute them. E.g. "slider" skill could be done in a way that when you slide down the slope you turn around in the opposite direction and therefore slide slower. Note that I say slope instead of cliff: if it were cliff then it would be too easy, but if you can go slower down the slope it can be usefull to do some action you couldn't do if you go fast like jumping over an enemy using a scout

EDIT: Allright, Moonstrider, I think this is the best image that's possible to get: screenshot taken at 1280x1024 with all AA options I could activate, saved as a 24-bit bitmap (don't worry, I zipped it). I think it looks pretty good.

Download (http://free-kc.t-com.hr/onyx/lemmings.zip)

[Onyx]

Ok first of all, sorry for double posting.

Now, some update: towworow is "the D Day" for me, I'm taking an exam to see if I got in the college I want. Hold your fingers crossed for me will ya? :D

So, development officialy begins tommorow or the day after (if I get in I might not be able to work tommorow :cheers: )

So, I'm opening a topic in art forum tommorow. I hope to have the first demo with basic features by the end of the week.

[guesst]

Good luck on your exams. I'm playing fury of the furries now so maybe i"ll have some feedback after.

I wonder if I have lemmings 2 anywhere?

[#BlakhOle#]

Good luck from me too. Im still hacking my way through Oh No more lemmings, never got to download no. 2. But if theres a whole lot of new abilities i might just have a look...

[Onyx]

Ok, just a quickie update.

Thank you all for wishing me good luck. It didn't turn out very good, still waiting for some results but I think I'll get in anyways.

I'll start working later today, just most basic stuff, gravity, movement, collisions, maybe character switching.

Also, any suggestions on character names? Lemmy is the obvious one but I kinda want to avoid that. They will be called scout, builder and engineer for time being.

OFFTOPIC: hey, guesst, any recomendations on C++ or C# tutorials for someone who allready knows basics of plain C? and, before you ask I don't plan on doing this thing in C++, I'm working in Game Maker, it's not much but it's egnouh for this kind of game

[guesst]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Onyx @ Jul 13 2006, 10:42 AM) 243080</div>
Also, any suggestions on character names? Lemmy is the obvious one but I kinda want to avoid that. They will be called scout, builder and engineer for time being.

OFFTOPIC: hey, guesst, any recomendations on C++ or C# tutorials for someone who allready knows basics of plain C? and, before you ask I don't plan on doing this thing in C++, I'm working in Game Maker, it's not much but it's egnouh for this kind of game
[/b]
Name suggestions :
Scout - Peepers. (Make him the smallest)
Builder - Max (Make him big and fit with with a hard hat)
Engineer - Doohan (A tribute to James Doohan who played Scotty, the engineer on the enterprise.)

As far as Tutorials, no I don't know of any. But if you find one, let me know because I'm looking at taking Cymons Games (http://www.abandonia.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10836) to the next level of C++ for my conversion of Wumpus. Unfortunately I don't have time for programming right now, and probably wont for, oh, about a year. At least until I finish my first year of teaching. But then again, who knows. I tend to need to do something for my sanity most of the time. (That's why I do reviews for Abandonia.)

[Onyx]

Engineer - Doohan (A tribute to James Doohan who played Scotty, the engineer on the Enterprise.)[/b]

Ok, this one is a MUST. Either Doohan or Scotty, one of those WILL be in the game.

Unfortunatly, there probably won't be any voice-acting... If it were this guy would have a scottish accent...

Great idea guesst

[GrimFang4]

To go along with your combination of Lemmings and Lost Vikings, why not call it Lost Lemmings (gotta love the aliteration)?
I would like it if the icon pickups were still in there, but when one character picks them up, the icon goes to the character that can use it. That would open up a lot of ideas for level design and puzzles where one guy (like the scout) has to go somewhere to pick up the skills for the other guys to pass an obstacle. Also, if you decide to add abilities that aren't strictly from Lemmings, then consider other puzzle elements and derive the abilities from them. A few examples are moveable blocks (pushing and pulling abilities), waterfalls (walking with umbrella, maybe used by anyone?), metal blocks (magnet to move closer, even through walls to land on switches), and poles or hooks (to latch onto with a rope or grapple).

For C++ tutorials, I like www.cprogramming.com and some other one that I can't find right now...
But the current build of this game isn't a full proof-of-concept. Lemmings is heavily pixel-based (explosions, destructable landscapes - there's a site on this too, I'll find it when I get home), so you'll probably need to know all about pixellated landscapes instead of blocks.


EDIT: I found those sites. www.gametutorials.com has some simple C++ tutorials and the other site, currently http://jnrdev.72dpiarmy.com/ , keeps moving around. It uses SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) too, so if you don't use it, you should!